• General
  • Brainstorming about the version 4 user interface

GtrGeorge Currently using outside processors is a hassle..and I bought audiobus and outside vendors dynamic processors and it was never right. If its within StageTraxx..I know it will be right..and useful

ST3 is a player not a DAW editor, why aren’t your tracks already packaged for perfect playback before loading them in to ST3 the player.
Once you expect all DAW like control ST3 becomes BLOATED, I want a perfect player not a mixture of all and nothing easy and simple, if you need these things you haven’t done your prep work correctly and patch fixing after is not the answer, it’s just a work around fix that really needs to be fixed where it’s broken.
Otherwise place a dedicated outboard device to fix anything that comes out of you ST3 program so you don’t need to spend the time in preparation.
A good sounding track should need no EQ or exciter / compressor once it leaves you DAW.

    5 months later

    Damir
    I understand your points, but I have recorded 11 hrs of backing tracks...over the past few years. Of course, certain mixes might be just a little bass heavy or maybe in a certain room..the high end is a but to much....hence my request. Even very well recorded music may need a small amount of fixing in a given environment. I play many different environment...its impractical to do mixes for specific rooms. And A hard limiter is not usually alot of CPU..and it could protect your PA in some instances. But hey, a boy can dream.

      GtrGeorge thats why you have EQ tweak and volume per song if needed and a master EQ or volume incase your Pa is the problem and you can fine tune all your songs at once.
      There is only so much you can expect from a program like ST3 which is designed for musicians that need a backing track with lyrics and chords but its designed mainly to be great from a replay perspective it is not meant to be a Great DAW as well.
      Yes it can be improved a bit, like VU meters of output and possibly master plugins that totally control the output but if your material is mastered properly none of these matter , ST3 has pleanty of headroom to tweak your EQ as its 6db lower output allows for adding EQ without worrying you will hit clipping , so its up to all users to place decent material in to ST3 to get best results.
      As they say Crap in = Crap out .
      There is no magic wand to fix bad audio , but there is some help to tweak for bad PAs.
      Cheers Damir

      GtrGeorge I play many different environment...its impractical to do mixes for specific rooms. And A hard limiter is not usually alot of CPU..and it could protect your PA in some instances. But hey, a boy can dream.

      Why a hard limiter? I actually want a wide dynamic range to maintain a live instrument sound so my backing has great dynamics so it sounds like a live performed instrument behind me, otherwise it sounds like a compressed recording and not natural.

      I’ve read all the comments on here with great interest. Here’s my 10 cents worth.

      I’ve been a user of Stage Traxx since the very early (and I mean early) days of v2. It has been and still is my professional singing centre piece and I would be lost without. I also can claim, along with a few other people on this thread, to be the instigator of many of the features we now take for granted on it and all thanks to Peter for patiently listening to my/our requests and suggestions.

      On stage I need simplicity, few things to accidentally press to get into a strange menu or mode, my attention should be on the audience and my performance, not the tech. I spend hours setting up what I need before I go on stage so that I don’t need to do it on stage with all the inherent risks.

      I use MIDI a lot for all sorts of things such as switching reverb and delays either as songs start/stop or at specific points in songs. The MIDI also controls my DMX lighting, transposition of keyboards and even sending keystrokes to a computer to change back projection slides.

      Let’s cover the iPhone question first. My suggestion would be to create a separate app for the iPhone as a subset of the normal program. With a cut down interface compared to the normal but using the same database. Much of the functionality can be removed. I’ve only ever used it while busking and I don’t need my MIDI or customisable buttons etc for that. I just needed music and lyrics. The body of the software could remain essentially the same with compilational exceptions for the iPhone version. That way common ‘issues’ would be correct in one pass but the phone version would simply ignore what it doesn’t need. The big difference being the visual interface design.

      On the main program I am very happy with most of the current layout and would, like many of the previous contributors, urge you to keep lyrics and song selection unobscured at all times. Here are a few of my suggestions for the main screen.

      1. Make the vertical divider between the song list panel and the lyric panel a moveable divider to make one bigger or small as desired.

      2. There is a lot of wasted space with the volume slider which could be reassigned to more assignable buttons. The volume could be shown as a dial knob, no bigger that one of the current assignable buttons which can be aduusted by putting a finger onto it and dragging in the way that many software synths show their rotary controls. Indeed the volume knob could be one of the assignable button choices in that format (we already have a vol up and vol down button so this would reduce the number of buttons to do the same task).

      3. Use a similar button sized assignable dial for the scroll speed and font size. For me this is wasted space as I put the effort into sorting these things in advance of me ever performing a song others will need it available so as an assignable ‘button’ dial the user has the choice. However it is important to keep the manual/auto button on the screen somewhere such as on the top right as another button or as a finger swipe from right to left on the lyric pain or a semi transparent button like the crossfade button.

      4. The freeing up of the volume bar would give the ability to add an extra eight or nine current sized assignable operations along that area. These can be used mid performance. However, an option to sacrifice extra buttons and return to the current format could be given as a menu option in setup for those happier as is.

      5. More MIDI assignable buttons, maybe 10 rather than the current two. For me this would be awesome as I can trigger, via MIDI anything I want at any time in any song. E.g. I could assign reverb on/off mid song to talk to the audience (I currently do that with the two buttons) but also change lighting routines or background displays. Used in conjunction with the above suggestions.

      6. A better interface for the control/use of regions. I keep looking at this and thinking I can see advantages in my se but it always seems too complicated to easily use on stage and too time consuming to program in advance. The problem is that I would not like to lose any of the screen area to this and so this may be a good use of a pop up menu when it’s needed.

      7. When networking two ST machines together to play the track on the remote machine as well as/instead of the main machine using the tracks on the remote machines database. This would allow me to fully control my set from on stage but have the remote machine near the desk but without having to stream the audio. I often sing abroad where there is a sound booth at the rear of the room but no audio input from the stage area. It would also mean that I can be wireless on stage on my own gigs without having to stream Bluetooth audio as I always take a spare iPad anyway. A switch in the setup menu could decide if audio and lyrics are played in the remote machine or just lyrics in a similar way to how local/remote lyrics are displayed. The host machine would still play the track but the volume would be turned down. This would mean that all timings would remain good.

      Sorry a bit of a long list but this software is so important to me which is why I’ve been a beta tester for so long.

      Other than that please don’t mess around with its current layout too much. It is awesome for me on stage and has allowed me to make a good living for some 10years or so without the issues I had with gear for the previous 25 years. I’ve managed to sell a huge number of people to using ST3 because for a live performer, especially a solo performer, it can be very simple or extremely feature packed without taking away from the performance or the audience.

      One final request, if ST4 is going to be so different and maybe lose some of the live performance advantages the please retain support and upgrades to ST3.

      Whatever you do Peter, thanks for and awesome product.

        One further request either for 3 or 4 would be to allow the program to be assignable to a midi device number (including the current omni) as I use a midi floorboard and would like to send to other devices without triggering my ST3 commands. I.e. my ST could be set to midi ID3 and would ignore anything not sent to that address on the midi bus. This is obviously only for the midi input side of ST the sending of midi would remain the same.

        Brian

        All valid points. Here are some remarks:

        iPhone App: I will not build a seperate app but I guess the iPhone version will have less functionality. Some things are too hard to build in a way that works both on a big and a small screen. So in these cases I will opt to simply drop the functionality that does not fit on the small screen size.

        Vertical Divider: You can already change the width. Here is video: https://stagetraxx.com/user-guide/overview/#full-screen-player-with-lyrics

        Audio Region interface: I am thinking a lot about how to do it right. Currently I think it will be a view that will only be displayed when a song contains audio regions. And it will be a scroll view to have enough space to show small regions or a large number of regions. Not sure yet if it will be horizontal or vertical. But in any case it will make the lyrics view smaller when displayed. No way around that.

        MIDI Receive: I don't understand. ST3 already only listens for commands that you assign to it. And these commands include a midi channel. So dedicate a midi channel to Stage Traxx and setup your midi commands accordingly. ST3 will ignore anything it does not know.

          Beejaywh ABSOLUTELY 200% AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID
          I could not have said it so well in so few words.
          Great feedback!
          Keep on doing it and hopefully we can keep everything simple yet powerful for on stage use.

          peter Audio Region interface: I am thinking a lot about how to do it right. Currently I think it will be a view that will only be displayed when a song contains audio regions. And it will be a scroll view to have enough space to show small regions or a large number of regions. Not sure yet if it will be horizontal or vertical. But in any case it will make the lyrics view smaller when displayed. No way around that.

          A view only when song contains audio regions makes good sense.
          Position of the interface , I would want it definitely horizontal as it makes more sense, and I would have it at the lower part of the screen just above the controller button area, reason is I hate putting my hand in front of my lyrics while choosing loops.
          I also think it might be better to have proportionally sized loop buttons so you never end up with small loop sections which are hard to hit , these buttons to have a scroll indicator moving from left to right through the button to indicate when the loop is ending , this then becomes easy to trigger all loops no matter how large or small number of loops you use.As they are clearly labeled to what they are and colour coded, when using loops I don’t really need a waveform to watch I have an audience, my eyes are on them, I need a very clear button to hit quickly and reliably so my screen does not keep dropping down by accident like it continually does now.

          The scroll view idea might work but only to cut in when using a large number of loops and the buttons start getting too small for the finger and perhaps this screen to auto scroll to keep the now playing loop in the middle of screen so you can easily jump forward or backward if needed.

          Here’s an idea , when using loops we loose the waveform, it becomes a loop button or buttons instead, you now get a master moving song indicator through all the loops area to tell us where we are in the overall song, when in play mode it is only a visual indicator to where you are in the overall song and can’t be adjusted, when in stop mode, if you long press on this indicator you can scroll through the song just like you do now in waveform and as you move you finger around the appropriate loop buttons they get highlighted and the internal button position indicator of the individual loop scrolls through as well letting you know where exactly you are in the song ie. half way in a solo or beginning of a 3rd verse , a single quick tap on a loop button selects it and you get same options that exist now if you tap more then once. This then gives us great visual feedback on stage and easy manoeuvrability when needing to practice, plus all the loop buttons are a good size , the less loops you use the bigger the buttons as you start using a very large number of loops there is a minimal optimal size loop where then you start using the scroll idea which then operates in this way,
          As you start the song and see the first loop begin as normal, once you get to the middle, the unseen loops auto scroll towards the middle till the last loop is seen then the auto scroll stops and finishes to the end of screen .
          This then automatically gives you flexibility to quickly be able to skip back & forth in loops without needing to scroll manually, if you choose to manually swipe to the end and choose a loop you drop out of auto scroll until the next loop ends which then automatically drop in to auto scroll again and places you in the middle of screen, this then allows you to browse your next loop but still gets you back in the middle of screen on a loop change.
          The loop buttons could be a bees tit taller.
          I think this would greatly simplify on stage use when using loops
          Now this idea has not been proven so please think about it and see if you can come up with improvements.
          Cheers Damir

          Last minute thought, when you choose to use loops the whole song has to be looped not just one part of a song , so this way this idea will work technically and practically, why?
          If you create just one loop in the middle of a song then you automatically get one loop at the beginning and one at the arse end of the song so you end up with 3 loops , if you create a loop from the begining or end of song you end up with 2 loops if you select the whole song from beginning to end you get 1 loop only but its the whole song, this then insures you will always see where you are in the song .
          So if I want to loop the solo only that’s in the middle of a song you will also get the front of the song loop and the back of the song loop this then gives you three large buttons and a great way to see when you are approaching the solo loop so once that loop is active you can engage a permanent loop on it or a single repeat and when you are done you can see the arse end loop engage and follow it visually till the end.
          If you only create one large loop of the song you can easily repeat the song or perhaps create two loops one that starts you off and the other when it comes to an end can jump to a specific spot in the beginning of the song so you have lots of options but the rule is if you choose one loop no matter what the whole song has to be looped one way or another.
          The idea of loop buttons is if you decide to use loops the whole waveform area becomes either one large loop button or segmented loop buttons adjusting proportionallyto how many loops you use, then when you get to a specific size you stop the resizing and maintain this minimal size but introduce the auto/ manual side swipe idea which takes care of having very short loops .
          So with this operation we will be able to choose easily the short endings and intros because the button sizes are all equal.

          I have this great vision which i might just create as a drawing and show you how it might look but it might take a few days.
          Cheers Damir

          Here is a very quick knock up of the general idea , ignore a lot of the things i could not perfect its just a general layout i think would work better on stage for me as a right hander,
          The title can stay on top and any other things that can go back up but generally the loop buttons are nicely at the bottom and are evenly sized for accurate touching the left of the Start button can be populated with better logic to use this space wisely.
          And the song position can move through the song title area to indicate where you are generally
          But i would have the master position cursor also in the loop area so when in stop mode you can long press it and move around the song.
          The loop indicator could be just a colour change of the button scrolling from left to right indicating when loop will finish, while the master pointer to be a definite line through this area which would not work if you are playing but in stop mode a long press would let you scroll through the song and the loops buttons would follow in unison.
          Sorry about the very rough drawing mockup but i hope you get my drift.

            All good suggestions. I think we agree on the important layout issues.

            Damir Really like this screen layout. My only addition is the session timer and the song remaining/elapsed timers.

              peter Yup, I realised about the device ID after I'd written it. I'm getting old and senile lol

              Beejaywh My only addition is the session timer and the song remaining/elapsed timers.

              Sorry i did not include them i ran out of time but i just wanted to show basic layout, i was going to place them on the left and right side of the song title area as they were and just the song title area to have it change progresively in colour to indicate where you are in the song as a rough guide so at a guick glance you could see which loop is active and how far through the loop you are and the song title area gives you an indicator of where in the song you are as well as which song you are in plus what is the next song , this is very useful informtion at a quick glance and is very close to each other so your eyes dont need to search too much , plus all your hand movements to trigger buttons are never causing you to hide the Lyrics as you might be using that part of the screen and possibly scanning for next song while choosing an important option like a repeat loop at the same time, etc.
              I would then have the ption for play button to be placed on the left side as well for left hand users and all other control buttons to be arranged to suit the user.
              I think having MIX and LOOP buttons as they are in that spot really is usable as extra control that does not impeede on lyrics too much , perhaps we only use that option if we run out of space down below in control area as some people only want a very few options that they regularly use.
              The bottom control area should be fully customizable and once it is full then the idea of side buttons should kick in and allow the extra commands starting at bottom and increasing in number untill it reaches the top of screen then if you change orientation you loose the top button features which might be the rarely used but nice to have in portrait mode , this creates a very customizable system.
              The other thing is the placement of these buttos can be changed by choosing the song selection area to swapp wit te lyrics area , this is most important feature so you can select next songs on the right side so you never cover your lyrics it would be grat if somehow the right side control buttons lso remain on the right side as well so you really never need to place your hand over the lyrics, this would be the ultimate layout for on stage use.
              Whe i get time i will try to draw it up so you can see my points.

              OK, here is a slightly more detailed layout of what i would regard would be a more comfourtable layout for me on stage.

              Firstly, to get to settings you just press the settings button top left , it is not practical to be searching for this function .
              There is only one screen to work with on stage but it is customizable to suit left and right hand users.
              You have an option to either display lyrics only , both lyrics and song selection or just songs, this is done simply by the side button as we have it now if you drag this all the way to one side it hides everything else so its just a simple slide left or right to create a combination that suits, in settings you can swap the sides for left or right hand users , this applies for the side control buttons they can be positioned on the left or right side of screen .
              The time of day and time remaining are in the same vacinity so you just glance in the same area to get all the timing the information you need , as these are a visual thing you dont need to place your hand over your lyrics and this area can also be swapped with the oposite side if needed, same for the settings button, this is reqularly needed in prep but not really on stage while performing so its on top left for right hand users and can be swapped for left hand users.
              The song properties , eq and auto play buttons are on the top right so a right hander can use his hand to engage these buttons without blocking the lyrics BUT also the screen that pops down will now drop down on the song select section and not on the lyrics screen so you can adjust EQ on the run and still see all the lyrics lines as they are never blocked by the dropdown.
              The Play button can afford to be slightly smaller as its unnecessarely too wide and a bees tit to tall , this then will freeup space for the loops above to be a decent thickness so you never miss a trigger, possibly make both of these sections the same thickness as they are all control buttons .
              The TAP TO CLOSE function is now unnecessary so get rid of it, you can either shink this panel right through or leave it as is and increase the size of the song name text to make it easier to see at a distance.A scroll colour goes through this area to indicate overall song position.
              The stop start is now either right or left side for obvious reasons, and all the control sections to be custimizable to create a perfect work environment for individual users.
              If there are no loops in a song, the loops area becomes a waveform area and behaves just like ST3 is now, if you long press anywhere in the waveform area it automatically takes you to the loop editor.
              This applies the other way around in STOP MODE if you long press in any loop area it takes you in to the editor.
              This means you can easily access the loop editor to create loops and get back to the player again.
              I love the audio editor the way it is , but i feel as though it could be more streamlined to create loops that will work for us on stage, as we need biger buttons to trigger all loops , this creates a number of editing issues, my feeling is if i am using loops i want my song to be fully loopable so i can maximally benefit on stage to manipulate the audience, if i only want to loop 1 section of a song in the middle of a song i will get one large loop button which wont do anything till i get to that section, i think it would be more benneficial that the song automatically breaks down in to three sections , this then gives me 3 large buttons , now this is a lot more practical as you immediately see the first part of the song start and you can follow this button positioner to see when you are approaching the loop you want , then as you enter the actual loop you need to manipulate you can do all the things you need like play it again by single tap or engage permanent loop, as you are done and release to progress to the last part of the song you then still get the benefit of seeing the ending part of the song progress but this also allows you to still get back to the middle loop if needed, the point i am trying to make is if you create 1 loop it creates a full song loop if you tell the song you need 2 loops it auto devides the song in two and gives you a drag bar to select where you need the loop point, if you drag it back to begining you can now set your intro as the first loop but you have another loop to the end , this allows you to immediately repeat a song from a predetermined point , and you end up with two large buttons in the player 1 is Intro 2 is Song.
              If you introduce another loop point by positioning the cursor at a point in song you want, it automatically creates an extra loop at that point which means now you have 3 loop buttons and this point can be dragged left or right till a perfect spot is found, when in PLAY all you need to do is tap create new loop point and loop points get created , then all you do is STOP,zoom in and accurately adjust the actual points, this would greatly speed up loop creation, if you double tap a loop it is muted but a loop button is still created , when playing a song in the loop player a double tap on a loop bypasses it as long as you are not already on this loop , if you know how many loops you need to create and you are in STOP mode, when you hit create loop it gives you a numeric number choice up to 24 loops, just select the number needed.Innitially All loop points are evenly spaced through the whole song so you then just drag the loop points to the exact position you need, some loops will be small others will be large but the buttons in the player will arrange their button sizes to be the same, once a minimal size is reached from there on you will get an automated scroll from left to right of the loop area that will follow the song position and keeping the now playing loop in the middle of screen.
              Now if you dont want to play a certain loop a quick double tap bypasses this loop.
              if you have a song that has blank space at the begining you can mute this loop in the editor and disable it so it will not create a loop button and the player will ignore this audio, this applies to the end of song loop if there is a lot of silence at the end you can mute this loop in the editor and disable it so it will not create a button and will not play this acts like a TRIM function that is all done in the editor itself , if you swipe down on these two front and back of of the song loops they will be fully disabled a swipe up will enable these loops , you can then get rid of the old style TRIM function.
              To recap, to trim a non looped song in STOP mode , you long press on the waveform this opens the loop editor which contains all your needs TRIM, FADE IN / OUT loop editing functions.
              Next to undo function you add the TRIM function, when you select it it gives you two options TRIM START, TRIM END , selecting the start creates a short loop at the begining of song this loop will not create a loop button in the player but will allow you to create a TRIM point, this applies if you create the TRIM END.
              This makes it much easier to create a good trim points and thins down the bloated setting options.
              Next to TRIM SONG , create FADE SONG, when you select this just like TRIM you get two options FADE IN SONG and FADE OUT SONG, this gives you a graphical drag and drop function so you can just grab a handle and drag it to a desired fade in time , this applies to FADE OUT.
              If you have not created any loops you will still get a waveform display , but if you have created 1 or more loops you get loop buttons in the waveform area apropriately & evenly sized.

              OK i am drained for now , i will keep on suggesting if you are interested..

              Just to add, the loop bar area you should be able to pinch in to fitt all 24 loops in that space and pinch out to show large loop buttons if needed this to be song remembered.

              23 days later

              Sorry for multiple replies don’t know what happened

              ST4 could accept Expression pedals - to assign volumes.

              peter I vote for making the v4 design for the large device UI layout as you described. If you will allow the legacy version to still be used, then iPhone users can still leverage that I would hope, but focus on larger format devices for v4 and beyond. My bias of course is I only use it on the iPad, but the iPhone is my backup if something fails with iPad. I'd be fine for each to use a separate version if the libraries import to each and reference same fileset/database (is that how it will work?).