Open Beta Version 3.6.0

MasterAnt

Small issue with UNDO during playback in the region editor: Region markers are undone visually but are not undone within the playback engine. Let me know if unable to reproduce and I'll write up steps or send you a video.

MasterAnt

Logic issue:

While playing a song and approaching a region, I tap the next upcoming region. It flashes white. The intention is to have the region play through then loop once. As the playhead hits the start of the region, the region stops flashing and only plays through once. So it makes no difference then if I tap the next region or don't because it only plays through once. The logic I'm expecting is that if I tap on upcoming region, I want it to play once and loop once. Makes little sense that whether it flashes or doesn't, it does the same thing. Currently I can't find a way to say I want to loop the next region until I'm inside the region.

I realise that you probably won't be doing this while playing live, and will instead be relying on your pedals. I haven't tested this yet, but if I toggle loop using a pedal just before entering the region, shouldn't it work on the upcoming region similarly to the way I described it above?

Damir

MasterAnt i dont agree with that logic the first touch of the next loop means you want to play that loop and should only play once and continue , if you want to play it twice you need to select it just like any other new selection, otherwise you have no control or option if you dont want to play it once only you are forced to play it twice, this is not ideal and actually menecing to a smooth on stage operation.

First touch of Select new loop plays that loop next once
Once you are on that next loop you have option to touch it again which is actually a normal first touch and will play this loop once more and continue but if you second touch on it puts it in permanent loop,
Third touch disables permanent loop
Fourth touch clears selection of that loop

If at any time you touch another loop it selects it and plays that loop next and at the same time clears the now playing loop and irs permanent loop or its selection if its active.

This logic gives all users flexability to create whatever they want, without restriction to any need.

Damir

MasterAnt I realise that you probably won't be doing this while playing live, and will instead be relying on your pedals. I haven't tested this yet, but if I toggle loop using a pedal just before entering the region, shouldn't it work on the upcoming region similarly to the way I described it above?

The logic on pedals is while you are on a loop you can choose another loop which is the same as first touch by finger, the second button is to activate permanent loop on the now playing loop which makes sense as it gives you instant control, with pedals you dont have any more power to do anything else, so yes you are limited but at least you are in full control of the instant moment, if you want pre planned permanent loops you have this feature in the loop edit system, i believe this is going to work fine on stage for most users as most will loop sections of songs like verse , solo, chorus and not 2 bar sections like foot pedal loopers if thats your need than you need a looper pedal instead, ST3 is designed to play song sections its not a drum machine or a looper pedal.

MasterAnt

If I have only one region in the song and I'm approaching the region but not yet in the region, if I tap on the region it starts flashing.

The flashing region has no significance. It is exactly the same as not flashing. I think that will be more difficult for a new user to understand.

Instead of flashing with no meaning, why not provide a purpose to the flashing?

I'm not talking about jumping between regions nor triggering loops while you're in the loop.

Damir

MasterAnt yes the reason is it’s telling you it’s the next thing that will happen the fact you have no other loops is insignificant it is just a sign this is what you have selected, why would you select it if it’s just one region I don’t know it seems pointless as it will enter that region anyway and when you are on that region you have some options like selecting it will play it once selecting it with two taps puts it in permanent loop and third touch cancels permanent loop and fourth touch clears all selection , this gives you all options you might want.
The issue I am having is you can not enter another loop once you have passed all your loops and are on non looped area , this is a major problem , you basically are forced to create loops right through the song otherwise you are limited with your movement, this is something I have raised in the beginning of looping test, how we get around this is to be seen but for now we have a pretty good system I would almost get on stage and use , it’s very close to be useable, creating loops seems to work even on iPhones which is great, but these little things might get ironed out with Peters genius and our feedback.
Cheers Damir

peter

The intention of flashing a region is to indicate that you have selected to play this region next. If playback is currently within this region, it will be effectively looped a single time. If playback is somewhere else, the region will be scheduled to play at the next region border. Once scheduled the flashing will stop.

^^ I think this description pretty much nails it and is exactly what you see happening.

Damir

Damir Found a problem in loop playback.
I created 11 loops.
In stop i select loop 1 hit play it plays through once and continues fine
In stop i select loop 2 it plays through twice than continues fine this is wrong it should play once like the first loop.
Now this applies to every alternative loop
Good loops are 1,3,5,7,9 they play once
Bad loops are 2,4,6,8 they play twice possably 12 i did not have a 12th loop but i assume if logic follows it will also play twice.

CORRECTION
This problem i have reported before and its logic is not as i wrote above it actually is a regular random problem, where every third selection repeats a pattern.

In stop mode if you select a loop , any loop, hit play , now do this repearedly, you will notice every third hit the pattern repeats, if the first play hit plays through once, the next two play hits will play the loop twice.
This behaviour is a big problem as you never know what you will get.
The normal logic should be when you select a loop then play it, it should play once only then continue every time not every third time you do this.

peter

Damir Ah, now I think I know what you mean. The problem is that each successive tap triggers something else: select next, then turn on loop, then turn off loop. Now I think this cycle has to be reset when you stop playback. Currently it is not reset so you trigger "select next", hit start, then hit stop, then when when you tap on it again you are at step 2 (turn loop on).

If I think about this every time you tap on another region, this cycle should be reset for all other regions. So that the first tap will always be to select a region. Damn, this is really tricky to get right.

jzavaletta I hope that this version will be finished in about two weeks. Major kinks are sorted but there are still some issues like the above logic problem or currently the jumping between regions in multitrack playbacks is also broken. So, I am still at it.

jzavaletta

Good morning all - Peter, do you have a timeline or estimated update for 3.6? Thank YOU for everything and you’re hard work in making ST3 a world-class app/software. Joseph in Idaho USA

Damir

peter yes it’s very tricky I don’t know how you do it but so far it’s really looking good I could virtually use it as is but the more we can fix before release the better, I have found other things that could be improved but won’t bother you with them as they can be tweaked later when we have the basic tool in operation, my next testing will be using a foot pedal to actually do a dummy test perform and see how it feels , using the interface with the finger seems good specially if you have fewer and larger loops, I just figured out a nifty trick of repeating a song, you create one long loop of the whole song make sure it loops well from end to beginning again then you have a very simple and accurate way of repeating a song , just tap on a waveform and you have a single repeat in action, it’s so simple and handy, tap on it again you have continual repeat for rehearsing the whole song, and if you have created multiple loops you have the same control on specific sections, this is very powerful stuff not just on stage but off stage,
As I said to you earlier once the looping is introduced ST3 will become the most powerful player on the planet,
Well done Peter the musical world thanks you 👏

peter

Damir I just figured out a nifty trick of repeating a song, you create one long loop of the whole song

I think you missed the new repeat song feature in this version (see changelog in the first post). So you don't need this workaround.

Damir I also had a crash on iPhone when fully zoomed in and dragging a loop point handle the program closed itself, and no fault report option appeared so I am not sure if you got an alert.

I found the cause of these crashes yesterday. It is a memory leak. High zoom factors need too much memory for rendering. This will be fixed in the next update.

Damir

Sorry Pete I found more issues in loop editor,
Both on iPad and iPhone the issues are different but in the same area.
On iPad if you double tap on loop and it enlarges in landscape now go to portrait and go back and forth you will notice the waveform position changes every time you do this it should remain central.

With iPhone it is more of a problem where one view point is completely different position to the other , so if you are working on one specific spot in a waveform if you change to the other view it is completely a different view point.
This is very distracting when editing.

I have just noticed if you are on loops that are closer to beginning or end of song the problem is worst when changing from landscape to portrait mode, if you pick on a loop more in the middle of song the problem is lessened,
My logic of view changes would be if you are zoomed to one loop by double tap if you change view orientation the waveform still remains in Center of screen filling the full view .
If you are in play mode and you pinch to zoom in to a point whatever that view is will be displayed the same in opposite view orientation, if you scroll to find the playhead the playhead once the playhead is in view it then is auto followed being in the centre screen until you scroll away to another point as soon as the playhead hits the end screen view it is released and is not followed anymore, so you can chase the playhead when zoomed in once you catch it in view it auto follows the playhead in centre screen . This way you can work on a specific point and the playhead doesn’t interfere but then you can lock on to it by scrolling to it.

The important thing now is to be able to change orientation without loosing position or view point of existing position.

I also had a crash on iPhone when fully zoomed in and dragging a loop point handle the program closed itself, and no fault report option appeared so I am not sure if you got an alert.

Damir

peter I just figured out a nifty trick of repeating a song, you create one long loop of the whole song

I think you missed the new repeat song feature in this version (see changelog in the first post). So you don't need this workaround.

Yes i was aware of the repeat feature, but the loop player repeat feature is much more on stage user friendly.
Example
If you want to loop the now playing song with the old way , you need to swipe left to open a window select the repeat, now that is not possible to do with foot pedal, plus its a two finger operation and its a well hidden option not many people would realise its there to use, plus once you engage it, it is permanent so you have to manually go through a reverse process to disingage it as on stage you definitely would not want more than a single repeat of a song.
Plus your loop of song using this is not very accurate, its as accurate as how you finalized your songs in which case most of us have not created a perfect loop when loading a song.

But with the new loop system has got it all , once you edit a perfect loop of the whole song you have one easy touch of the screen to engage a single loop, you also have a single touch of a foot pedal to do this or if you want permanent loop its another touch or foot hit away so you can practice, you can change your mind on the run and disable the option very simply, when the song replays its a perfect transition from end to begining all simply done in your face just to use, now your song editing process can be a bit sluggish ,no problem the loop editor can fine tune it so you can perform perfect repeats of song.
That was the reason i wrote my previous observation so users realize they can use the loop system in numerous ways to achieve great things on stage without stress.

And thats the reason i was asking for a much quicker access to the loop editor as its going to be something you quickly want to jump to to create or tweak in a song, at the moment it is way to far away to get to quickly.
Forinstance if you are in portrait mode on iphone or even on ipad with lyrics only display, you need to TAP TO CLOSE hit the small INFO circle then thank god you shifted the next step hit the LOOP EDITOR , THATS 3 steps away , by then you would almost forget to why you entered the editor in the first place.
My wish would be when i come across a spot in a song using the player that i feel i need to use the loop editor i just want one action to open it and wherever the playhead is in the player the loop editor is cued up on the same spot, if it hapens to be within an existing loop then i expect this loop to be opened up in the double tap mode zoom point view ready for tweaking of that loop.

This then creates very fast insperational work flow it bypasses the computer torture menue system and allows the musician to be a creator not a slave to the software.
This is hard to do i know , this is what seperates the boys from the men, i know you have proven yourself many times over but im just pointing things out.

Damir

Change request in Loop Editor
Hi Peter , I am finding labelling of loops to be very difficult to use.
The colour and positioning is a problem.
The permanent loop indicator is in a bad spot as it gets covered by the loop shift handles at the bottom , so a central position would be more logical as it will always be in view, this applies to loop name it should be central as it’s always best placed no matter the size of the loop.

The colour of both should be bright white so it stands out no matter what colour the loop is, at the moment some colours are so similar it is hard to see and read.

Damir

Hi Peter, i got up 3 am and played around with ST3 , and have just figured out what it was that bugged me about it but could not put my finger on it before, i have never liked software that does the same thing in multiple areas as this bloats the software unnecesarily and creates confusion to the user, i rather have one way of doing one thing even if its a bit awkward as you get use to it it never changes.
Saying that, i noticed SONG PROPERTIES and SONG INFORMATION areas have a number of functions that are the same yet then they have a number of different functions, i believe this adds great confusion to the user as the user cant quickly work out which to use for what.
The naming of the two headings is not the issue its the fact you have repeaded functions mixed with different function that reside in different positions and are different colour , both areas have a large option selection thats similar yet different, this is frustrating to a logical mind.

Example in song properties you have at the top MIDI send all notes off, but then in song details right at the bottom you have MIDI Song Select C and Timecode Offset, i know why you did this, but to most users that dont use MIDI at all it is confusing , perhaps all MIDI stuff belongs in one place to avoid confusion.

The main reason i am talking about this is because we have a much more important function that is looping that has not been thought about making easy access to, also the multitrack users would be grateful if their functions were easier to access just like Lyrics/chord users, yet we have in song properties right at the top a function that most of us will never use.

My suggestion is especially now that looping is here ,
When you hit SONG PROPERTIES you get this in Capital letters and different colours for each editor so it is easily seen and immediately recognized

Song Properties

LOOP EDITOR
MULTITRACK EDITOR
LYRICS EDITOR
PDF EDITOR
PLAYLIST EDITOR

This then gives you quick access to all major editors which is something all users need and not the midi reset function that only a few users might need on rare occasions.
I personally would have both Song properties and Song info be exactly the same cause they almost are anyway and work out a priority order of the functions which are most important to be at the top.
Renaming a song name and artist is a once of thing why have it at the top , the editors are frequently used so have tem at the top MIDI belongs to be all together volume setting is unnecessary in that area as it exists on the front panel anyway , Equalizer has its own function button so why hog up this area with it again and create confusion get rid of it.

This would make ST3 a lot more simpler and logical to use , i am throwing this idea to you because i still feel the fantastic functions you have created are too hard to get to quickly.
They deserve a much more obvious place in the software so they can shine.

I was even thinking a double tap on the songs properties button to get you immediately in to the LOOP EDITOR, as its right next to the waveform where the loops are so its immediate and an obvious fast shortcut especially once people get use to it. But i feel the Lyrics and multitrack and playlist editors need to be easy to get to as well lets not forget the PDF EDITOR so perhaps both ideas would make it really easy to do everything.

My order of importance

LOOP EDITOR
MULTITRACK EDITOR
LYRICS EDITOR
PDF EDITOR
PLAYLIST EDITOR

Tempo, you can tweak on the run so its one button push away at the top

Pitch, you can tweak on the run so its one button push away at the top

Midi, send all notes off, might be used live so its one button push away at the top

Pan, normally used in editing process its not that iportant so it can afford to be a button push and scroll away

Transpose chords , normally used in editing process

Playback Trim, normally used in editing process

Keywords, normally used in editing process

Colour, normally used in editing process

Midi, normally used in editing process

Title, set once and forget
Artist, the same as title
BPM, its fine under Artist
Play Count, nice to have
Duration, is already visible on the interface anyway but nice to have
File, unimportant cant do anything with it anyway nice to have at bottom or perhaps under Artist

Anyway its 4am now i might get back to bed i hope this helps to improve ST3 or gives you some more ideas for later tweaking.

peter

Generally speaking, you are right. That's due to the fact that most of what you mentioned is functionality that was added during the lifetime of version 3. Version 3 has learned more new features in its lifetime than version 1 and 2 combined. The UI was simply not designed for this in the first place.

The correct step to solve all these UI inconveniences is to completely overhaul the UI with all the functionality in mind that you can currently do in Stage Traxx. And this will be the major goal of a version 4 that I will start working on after update 3.7 next year. Currently I will only try to improve some issues that will not break existing workflows.

EDIT: I meant update 3.7 not 3.6.

peter

New beta build 8580

I think we are very near to release. The stability improves more and more and I hope there will be no more crashes after this update. I am confident the final version can be released until the end of the month.

Changed

Improved readability and positioning of region title and loop icon in editor
Audio region editor will now always use track 1 by default for waveform

Fixed

Possible out of memory crash with high zoom factors in region editor
Audio region scheduling does not work in multitrack songs
Another logic issue tapping on audio regions
Undoing a region change is not immediately audible in playback

MasterAnt

Did a 15-minute bug search. Overall, things are working quite well!

A few noteworthy things I came across:

While moving the endpoint of a region during playback in the editor, the endpoint isn't updated until my finger lets go of the marker. This is similar to how UNDO wasn't working in the previous version. It should be syncronised—the marker moves on screen and the playback engine should loop at this current marker position.
This one was quite difficult to put my finger on... I created a short region around the count-in, 1-bar at 90bpm starting about 0.5 seconds into the song, with loop=on as default. My (testing) idea was to have an intro count-in loop by default until I hit the unloop pedal button, which I'm testing by using the assignable on-screen buttons. Practically, this allows me to mess around on guitar to a "metronome" before starting the song seemlessly in the same bpm.

The problem presents itself when disabling the intro loop, stopping the song, going to another song, playing that song, then crossfading back into the original song. What happens is that although the intro is set to loop, and it shows an infinite loop icon in that region, playback does not loop and instead plays right through and out of the region.

After a lot more tesing, I think the problem is in crossfading into a loop. My xfade is 3-seconds out, 0-seconds in. Dropping the xfade to 1-sec fixed the issue. I set the xfade to 10-seconds and made the region longer. Same problem occurs. So xfade appears to be ignoring the loop instruction.

Otherwise things are working well. I can't wait to have the crossfades in the official, stable version.

peter

MasterAnt While moving the endpoint of a region during playback in the editor, the endpoint isn't updated until my finger lets go of the marker.

I can't do that because for each adjustment of the region border in the audio player, the playback must be stopped and restarted. This no problem if it is done from time to time, like when you release the handle or press undo but it is a problem when done 60 times a second while dragging the handle. So this will remain to be a known limitation.

MasterAnt After a lot more tesing, I think the problem is in crossfading into a loop.

Excellent find and it only happens if you have already played the destination song at least once. Will be fixed.

Damir When you select a song and play it and you stop in the middle somwhere in the song a tap on the same song reselects it to the begining again just like selecting another song.

Actually, there is the stop mode Rewind for exactly this purpose.

Damir When you are on a loop and you engage the permanent loop, which means you want to permanently loop when playing live, BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU WANT TO PERMANENTLY LOOP THIS LOOP WHILE EDITING LOOPS

Right, I had it working like you described some updates ago but I guess one of the updates broke that. Loops are not played by default in any of the editors in Stage Traxx and the audio region editor should be no exception to that. Will be fixed.

Damir Hi peter i found a logic change issue that happens when you use the timeline playhead shift.

I believe this is the same problem as above. I'm confident it will be resolved with the above fix.

Damir At the moment there is no logic to the zoom and it’s confusing as you never know what will happen when using the zoom buttons.

There is a logic: The zoom will always happen at the location of the pinch gesture. This was an explicit change request (not sure if it was your request or not). Only exception is when using the zoom buttons, then the zoom will happen around the playhead.

Damir If you create a loop right at the end of song and the loop finishes at end of song, when you choose this loop it does not loop play,

Damn, I had this problem fixed two versions ago and now it resurfaced. Will take a look at it.

Damir

I am loving the loop playback logic now it is becoming stage friendly, the issue of starting any loop and playing on has gone, and getting around a song now seems to be effortless and reliable and a joy to use specially if your loops are perfect, which also isnt that hard to do anymore, there are still some logic improvements that can be done which i will mention in another thread but this is just confirming one issue that now seems to be perfect.

Centre placing the loop and name is now more pleasing but the colour contrast is still an issue i believe it still needs to be like in the player, white so you can more easily see the writing.

This was a 5 minute test so i will report on more as i play along.

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