Open Beta Version 3.6.0

Damir

FEEDBACK - Loop Editor
IT WORKS as a general concept.

Issues
Playhead moves on in some cases but the view remains on loop section, getting the playback head to the loop you are actually working on is bad logic, I should be able to quickly get the playhead back to the selected loop by selecting that loop , at the moment the only way is to use timeline which is not ideal as you want to have your playhead at perfect beginning of loop so you can hear the actual start, to do this properly you have to stop play double click on loop and when it’s selected hit play again this is slow workflow and messy.

A selected loop should always play that loop and playhead should follow , if you drag the playhead to a non loop then selected loop should be deselected and playhead should be visually followed, if you then double tap on a loop it means you want to work on that area so it displays this full loop and playhead starts from beginning on that loops and remains on that loop until exited.

On iphone when you rename a loop and hit enter the view is not returned so you can see the timeline or the name of loop you have to manually drag it down every time , this is unnecessaraly slow workflow. On ipad i believe this is ok.

Suggestion
Playhead gets to be followed until you touch the edit area to zoom or reposition then the follow playhead gets immediately cancelled, alowing you to work on edit, a restore button is needed so you can engage follow playhead when done editing.
There are times following playhead is handy and there are times it is not so the answer is to make this as simple to transition from one way to the next, Cubase uses this logic and it works very well accomodating all situations.

Having a volume fader to tweak your monitoring level is most important when editing loops as it can drive you loopy if the listening level is not setup perfectly for every situation you are in, this level should have no effect on normal replay it should purely be an editing preference which is ignored when not in loop editor.

When seeing all loops there needs to be a clear indicator to which loops are in permanent loop mode and which are not, at the moment you have to select every loop to see it’s setting, this is slow workflow as you have 12 loops to go through to check this setting.

Generally speaking the loop editor is growing to be a fantastic feature and I can’t wait to be able to use it on stage, I don’t know if it’s worth creating looping songs yet until the full version comes out as I would hate to do things twice so I am only working with a small number of songs for now for testing purposes.

peter

Damir I don't see any crashes for build 8556. The seek issue should have been fixed in build 8551.

Regarding the loop editor: I will not tweak this editor for iPhone screens. I see the iPhone as a backup device but certainly not as one that will be primarily used to edit songs. So while everything will work on the iPhone I will not make special tweaks only for the iPhone, like scrolling the view to the top when you exit a text field.

The playhead issue is a bug. Loops are not played correctly while you keep your finger on the screen. I will fix that in the next update.

I will also fix the blinking issues reported by @MasterAnt and I had to learn that looping did not work at all in iOS versions prior to 15.

Damir

peter I see the iPhone as a backup device but certainly not as one that will be primarily used to edit songs.

I actually like the iphone as an editor as it is always with me and i can get good results with it whenever i get free time and i am cosiderring using it as my main player for smaller gigs as it is so inconspicuous at smaller gigs where the audience is fearly close. I wouldnt underestemate the number of iphone users, yes the ipad is very nice but not every user will use the ipad all the time, choosing next song is the only disadvantage but if you dont need that badly theres not much difference iphone in prtrait mode can give you a very nice lyrics display at a distance it can be placed on a boom stand without it looking overpowering , it has lots of advantages, so i wouldnt rate it low as a user device, if anything i would rate the imac as the least important tool as it cant be used on stage, sure it gives you nice big editing experiance but its not with you all the time,
Ipad is no 1 on stage
Iphone no 2
And imac is really not good on stage.
So i would make both the ipad and iphone as powerfull as possible as they are the only tools for on stage.

Damir

Wasted screen space, screen that doas nothing as you enter it.

I believe this screen needs help,
As you enter it it only does one thing allows you to create a loop, this is the most wasted screen in ST3.
It does not give you any information like which loops are selected as permanent loops , if you happen to have loops already it forces you to enter every loop and have a peep to see if you have permanent loops selected, this is absolute waste of time and space.

EDIT AUDIO REGIONS
This is not true and unnecessaraly a long description of something that could be misunderstood by some users.
This implies you might be able to edit your audio which is not correct.
LOOP EDITOR
Is much more accurate, shorter to read , direct description of something this page actually does, it edits loop points, and it does not imply it edits audio.

As i said before this makes more sense and uniformaty so we can find things we need in one place
PLAYLIST EDITOR
LYRICS EDITOR
LOOP EDITOR
MULTY TRACK EDITOR
What it is you want and what it is it does all in a short description and in one place for easy finding.
No need to hunt around all over the place to get to most used functions.

Things we need we dont have and things we dont need are used up by the space we dont need or understand anyway , i dont understand this logic.

I need to know i can delete a loop, i dont need to know i am in Region Details , this term means nothing to me , i am dealing with loops i dont need this unfriendly term of description that uses up the space uselessly but i do not see the thing i actually need and thats how to delete a loop , LOOP is short in name tells me exactly what im dealing with, REGION DETAILS means nothing to me as i am creating LOOP points, so LOOP EDITOR is more appropriate shorter to read and simpler to understand, i am not editing audio as such i am editing loop points.And seeing a delete loop is more important to see than you are in REGIONAL DETAILS AREA, i noticed people have asked how to delete loops because the actual area they needed to see was hidden they need to scroll up to see it , this is bad logic.

DELETE REGION
could mean to some users that they will delete this region which is actually not what they want as it appears the audio will be deleted, DELETE LOOOP on the other hand is very clear it means you will only delete the loop and not the audio. I never liked the termenology used from the beginning and still think it is not the best option.
But i am used to it and can live with it as i know the program iside out, but we need to consider the novices.

Damir

Bug report, when you create the first loop very close to begining of song as you select that song and play it you hear the small unlooped section at the beginning but the first loop is muted, if you stop play then choose first loop it plays ok so the fact that i have a very tiny gap seems to be affecting first playback.
I havent noticed this before because most of my songs are instant start so my first loop is allways from the head of the song, but now that i have to trim the front of songs more accurately to create a perfect loop i have picked it up.

I have just noticed it also ignores any loop commands, it just scrolls lyrics and playhead as expected but no sound and no loop control, as soon as you hit stop and play again sound comes back and you get control back of loops as normal.
So this little beginning gap is a problem.

Damir

Damir Bug report, when you create the first loop very close to begining of song as you select that song and play it you hear the small unlooped section at the beginning but the first loop is muted.
After a bit of experimenting it appears this muted audio only occurs if you start your first loop within a certain timeframe.
If you fully zoom in on the front of your song then place your playhead at the first quarter of the screen and create a loop you will find the audio of this song will now mute when you hit play from begining of song.

If you shift the start point to half screen or later it plays normaly and if you also place the loop up to the first eighth of screen it plays ok, its only when you start your loop around the quarter of screen mark it mutes the track.
Be sure to be zoomed right in at the begining of song

peter

I will not change the term "audio regions" to "loops" because a region does not necessarily loop. What you do is you actually slice up your song into multiple regions and you can (but don't need to) activate a loop on this region. Therefore a loop is an action that you can trigger on a region.

Regarding the wasted space: That space is reserved for the region details. I don't like the idea of the waveform constantly changing size when selecting or deselecting a region. I will not change that.

Damir

peter technically speaking you are correct, operationally speaking it’s confusing and unnecessary, the space I am talking about is wasted by unnecessary suck egg information yet the important stuff like delete a loop is hidden when the window is opened on smaller screens, you need to consider the smaller screens more in designing the software no one really is going to drag an iMac or a 12.5 inch iPad on their gigs as it’s not practical and looks bad on stage.
That’s the whole beauty of ST3 it is designed for on stage use first off stage editing is not its main task.
So good simple labels and practical layout is very important, at the moment a lot of important stuff is all over the place you are continually bouncing between different areas to get to very important stuff it should be simpler quicker to get to things and more consistent so people don’t need to think too much of how to get to things, you are technically starting to overload the software , I know it’s hard to keep things in order but sometimes you have to step back and have a real good look at things to see them.
Imagine yourself as a totally new user being confronted with this beast of a program and think about the things that would confuse you or frustrate you.
We are very use to this program and it seems easy but it actually is not.
You have a very bloated settings area with good reason and I understand that, but then you have a very hidden powerful looping tool that is very hidden from first time users it’s named and placed awkwardly even when you discover this gem you always struggle to enter it, because it’s two selections and a scroll away and positioned poorly and labeled in such a way it does not really make sense to an average user, yes it makes perfect sense to you and me technically, but not to the average musician that’s just wanting a loop point or a audio segment or whatever else you could call it.

I am being brutally honest as we have come a long way with this and it’s bloody marvellous to what we are gonna end up with, as I always said to my band members if its no good just tell me and don’t waste time let’s fix it and make it sound as good as we can the fastest way possible and that’s how you improve , no hurt feelings and great results on stage.
I know you are dealing with a lot more important technical issues so take this criticism lightly but please consider it once the technical stuff is done.

peter

New beta build 8572

Been working hard through the weekend and I think I was able to fix all reported issues so far.

Added

ctrl + cmd + 1 to 8 key commands to set color of selected text in lyrics editor
Scrolling when moving region handles to the screen border in region editor

Changed

Visible area in audio region editor will follow playhead during playback if no region is selected
Audio region editor will show loop status in waveform
Moved some items on song details page into the top section
New icon for unlocked state in audio region editor

Fixed

Loop playback broken on iOS versions before iOS15
Scheduling of very short audio segments
Playback could go silent at region borders during user interactions
Logic errors in audio region selection during playback (both in editor and player)

Damir

Great work Peter , audio mute problem has gone the shifting of loop edit and multitrack is more convenient now I always had to look hard to find them I was going to suggest all editors to be given colour text or capitals just so they stand out more as the dominant feature which they are, starting from Playlist to multitrack just to make them pop out even more.

The continual scrolling is great and the permanent loop indicator in waveform is now very handy to see all sections that have it on without hunting through all the loops, the only other thing with it and the name of loop is the colour should be white so there is much more contrast so you can see the letters and the loop indicator better as it gets washed out being the same colour but darker.

The playhead logic is better now , but I would still have the playhead jump to a loop selection in play mode so if it’s in a non loop section when you select a loop it should jump to that loops beginning as you obviously want to hear that loop, by deselecting this loop the playhead continues and is followed but if you then select any loop the playhead jumps to that loops beginning and loops in that section until you either choose another loop or you deselect the loop or you use the timeline to reposition the playhead, once you reposition the playhead if it’s to a non looped area the selected loop is automatically disengaged until you choose another loop again, this automatically follows what you want to do without having to do it manually.
In stop mode the playhead jumps as expected it should do the same in play mode.

I just found if you double tap a loop and it plays through with it in full screen then you choose another loop the playhead does not get followed, it should expose the newly selected loop and show the playhead position unless I use a pinch gesture meaning I want to work on a particular area without interruption and then if I double tap to select a loop again expose it fully and play it and follow the playhead from there on until I pinch gesture again but if I deselect a loop continue on and follow playhead.

I know this sounds complicated but it would make editing and moving about very logical.
In other words make the playhead do what I want to do next don't let it be stuck in its own thing it needs to be smart.

I am really enjoying the loop feature and can’t wait to use it on stage it’s going to make such a big difference in performing.
Well done!

Damir

Found a problem in loop playback.
I created 11 loops.
In stop i select loop 1 hit play it plays through once and continues fine
In stop i select loop 2 it plays through twice than continues fine this is wrong it should play once like the first loop.
Now this applies to every alternative loop
Good loops are 1,3,5,7,9 they play once
Bad loops are 2,4,6,8 they play twice possably 12 i did not have a 12th loop but i assume if logic follows it will also play twice.

Great work Peter Im off to bed its 2.37am good luck.

Damir

Damir Found a problem in loop playback.
I created 11 loops.
In stop i select loop 1 hit play it plays through once and continues fine
In stop i select loop 2 it plays through twice than continues fine this is wrong it should play once like the first loop.
Now this applies to every alternative loop
Good loops are 1,3,5,7,9 they play once
Bad loops are 2,4,6,8 they play twice possably 12 i did not have a 12th loop but i assume if logic follows it will also play twice.

CORRECTION
This problem i have reported before and its logic is not as i wrote above it actually is a regular random problem, where every third selection repeats a pattern.

In stop mode if you select a loop , any loop, hit play , now do this repearedly, you will notice every third hit the pattern repeats, if the first play hit plays through once, the next two play hits will play the loop twice.
This behaviour is a big problem as you never know what you will get.
The normal logic should be when you select a loop then play it, it should play once only then continue every time not every third time you do this.

MasterAnt

Small issue with UNDO during playback in the region editor: Region markers are undone visually but are not undone within the playback engine. Let me know if unable to reproduce and I'll write up steps or send you a video.

MasterAnt

Logic issue:

While playing a song and approaching a region, I tap the next upcoming region. It flashes white. The intention is to have the region play through then loop once. As the playhead hits the start of the region, the region stops flashing and only plays through once. So it makes no difference then if I tap the next region or don't because it only plays through once. The logic I'm expecting is that if I tap on upcoming region, I want it to play once and loop once. Makes little sense that whether it flashes or doesn't, it does the same thing. Currently I can't find a way to say I want to loop the next region until I'm inside the region.

I realise that you probably won't be doing this while playing live, and will instead be relying on your pedals. I haven't tested this yet, but if I toggle loop using a pedal just before entering the region, shouldn't it work on the upcoming region similarly to the way I described it above?

Damir

MasterAnt i dont agree with that logic the first touch of the next loop means you want to play that loop and should only play once and continue , if you want to play it twice you need to select it just like any other new selection, otherwise you have no control or option if you dont want to play it once only you are forced to play it twice, this is not ideal and actually menecing to a smooth on stage operation.

First touch of Select new loop plays that loop next once
Once you are on that next loop you have option to touch it again which is actually a normal first touch and will play this loop once more and continue but if you second touch on it puts it in permanent loop,
Third touch disables permanent loop
Fourth touch clears selection of that loop

If at any time you touch another loop it selects it and plays that loop next and at the same time clears the now playing loop and irs permanent loop or its selection if its active.

This logic gives all users flexability to create whatever they want, without restriction to any need.

Damir

MasterAnt I realise that you probably won't be doing this while playing live, and will instead be relying on your pedals. I haven't tested this yet, but if I toggle loop using a pedal just before entering the region, shouldn't it work on the upcoming region similarly to the way I described it above?

The logic on pedals is while you are on a loop you can choose another loop which is the same as first touch by finger, the second button is to activate permanent loop on the now playing loop which makes sense as it gives you instant control, with pedals you dont have any more power to do anything else, so yes you are limited but at least you are in full control of the instant moment, if you want pre planned permanent loops you have this feature in the loop edit system, i believe this is going to work fine on stage for most users as most will loop sections of songs like verse , solo, chorus and not 2 bar sections like foot pedal loopers if thats your need than you need a looper pedal instead, ST3 is designed to play song sections its not a drum machine or a looper pedal.

MasterAnt

If I have only one region in the song and I'm approaching the region but not yet in the region, if I tap on the region it starts flashing.

The flashing region has no significance. It is exactly the same as not flashing. I think that will be more difficult for a new user to understand.

Instead of flashing with no meaning, why not provide a purpose to the flashing?

I'm not talking about jumping between regions nor triggering loops while you're in the loop.

Damir

MasterAnt yes the reason is it’s telling you it’s the next thing that will happen the fact you have no other loops is insignificant it is just a sign this is what you have selected, why would you select it if it’s just one region I don’t know it seems pointless as it will enter that region anyway and when you are on that region you have some options like selecting it will play it once selecting it with two taps puts it in permanent loop and third touch cancels permanent loop and fourth touch clears all selection , this gives you all options you might want.
The issue I am having is you can not enter another loop once you have passed all your loops and are on non looped area , this is a major problem , you basically are forced to create loops right through the song otherwise you are limited with your movement, this is something I have raised in the beginning of looping test, how we get around this is to be seen but for now we have a pretty good system I would almost get on stage and use , it’s very close to be useable, creating loops seems to work even on iPhones which is great, but these little things might get ironed out with Peters genius and our feedback.
Cheers Damir

peter

The intention of flashing a region is to indicate that you have selected to play this region next. If playback is currently within this region, it will be effectively looped a single time. If playback is somewhere else, the region will be scheduled to play at the next region border. Once scheduled the flashing will stop.

^^ I think this description pretty much nails it and is exactly what you see happening.

peter

Damir Ah, now I think I know what you mean. The problem is that each successive tap triggers something else: select next, then turn on loop, then turn off loop. Now I think this cycle has to be reset when you stop playback. Currently it is not reset so you trigger "select next", hit start, then hit stop, then when when you tap on it again you are at step 2 (turn loop on).

If I think about this every time you tap on another region, this cycle should be reset for all other regions. So that the first tap will always be to select a region. Damn, this is really tricky to get right.

jzavaletta I hope that this version will be finished in about two weeks. Major kinks are sorted but there are still some issues like the above logic problem or currently the jumping between regions in multitrack playbacks is also broken. So, I am still at it.

jzavaletta

Good morning all - Peter, do you have a timeline or estimated update for 3.6? Thank YOU for everything and you’re hard work in making ST3 a world-class app/software. Joseph in Idaho USA

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