Open Beta Version 4.0.0

Damir

musicadi all great points and things we thought about in ST3.

Damir

MarkGuitar I totally understand and agree with your views , but I don’t want nothing in the initial opening , I call it IKEA product I want the best for majority then as you say a way to modify to suit individual users.

MarkGuitar

Damir I totally understand and agree with your views , but I don’t want nothing in the initial opening , I call it IKEA product I want the best for majority then as you say a way to modify to suit individual users.

It’s a bit disingenuous to describe the app as IKEA. And when you say ‘I don’t want nothing’ and ‘I want the best for the majority’ are you sure you are indeed speaking for the majority?

AnthonyB

peter New beta build 1763
Fixed

Possible crash restarting the audio engine (after resuming app or switching audio interfaces)

Just tested Build 1763 - still crashing 🙁
Crash log sent.

My repro:

Launch ST4
Plug in Behringer X32 mixer USB cable
ST4 crashes

Damir

BUG!
When a song finishes and a new one is loaded pressing on any audio segment does not highlight it , so you are not visually assured that’s the loop that will play .

My other suggestion is that the now playing loop needs to be highlighted as well in some way that we can easily see the loop that is playing , having the progression bar is great but it does not show you anything as the loop starts playing, this creates uncertainty, and then you relax as you can actually see some progress, I suggest the now playing loop should always be highlighted as well as the next loop ,
Or perhaps a thicker different colour surround indicating the now and next song segments to keep us definitely informed at all times, at the moment it’s s barely enough.

The thin white surround on the button selected should be thicker and another colour to indicate now playing loop also thicker so it stands out a lot more from other segments.

Damir

MIXER Feedback
I am confused to why you have made it so complicated, when it could be so simple,
You said STEREO OR MULTITRACK will integrate easily , so why is it separated on the mixer , surely track 1 bus 1 means it is a stereo track and belongs in the mixer as the first fader the moment you load any other track it automatically becomes a multitrack song.
So why have you placed this same fader on the left hand side and given it a SOLO button which makes no sense , why would you solo that track when only one exists anyway? I am confused by this mixer,
Why not keep it simple and give us MASTERS on the left and all tracks or channels or busses whatever you want to call them on the right and give us the SOLO button’s on all the tracks so we can then use SOLO function or MUTE as required.
Song volume, CLICK volume and master volume is fine to have there but the CLICK volume should only be there if it’s been used , if it’s not used than it should not be present hogging up space .
I don’t get the logic swap of stereo out it gives us 1 to 16 bus selection yet other channels don’t.
Why do I have 3 fader points on a channel 1 track ?
Song volume, track 1 volume , bus 1 volume controlling the same song , yet in bus fader I don’t get bus 1 to 16 selection but I get out1/2 button that lets me mute this channel yet I already have a mute button for this on the mixer surface , stereo which is the default anyway so I don’t really need that either but then I have left or right speaker selection to mono the track to either side but no combine function to get mono out of my both left and right which would be really useful if I wanted to run on all speakers in mono.
Why is it so complicated when it could be so simple ,
Just replicate the same functionality of what you have done in the stereo fader that says TRACK 1 , give us 15 more , and keep the SOLO on all the 16 tracks ,
This then would be very simple and logical to use and understand , you have your needed MASTERS to the Left and your tracks to the right , if you load a stereo file track 1 is always used for that and any added audio in to other tracks automatically treat the song as a multitrack,
When you select the BUS selector it opens 1 to 16 bus options on all tracks as well as the option to select left speaker , right speaker or both can be selected at the same time to give you both speakers in MONO.
It should be that simple .
Am I missing something?
I probably am, the mixer Is nice I just think it’s not easy to understand at first glance.
I also think having an individual play list volume master was very useful and something I haven’t worked out yet how to work around but it’s not a deal breaker.
I am sure things will fall in to place ,
I like the play button back to where it was and the mixer and info button closer together it’s safer and more practical leaving more space for other functions.
I still think the Queue button is a waste of space and belongs as a settings selection option.

MarkGuitar

Damir So why have you placed this same fader on the left hand side and given it a SOLO button which makes no sense , why would you solo that track when only one exists anyway? I am confused by this mixer,
Why not keep it simple and give us MASTERS on the left and all tracks or channels or busses whatever you want to call them on the right and give us the SOLO button’s on all the tracks so we can then use SOLO function or MUTE as required.

I assume it is because all DAW type mixers (and physical mixers desks for that matter) most commonly have input channels to the left and groups and busses to the right. This mimics a logical left to right signal flow. It makes perfect sense to me. If you are unsure take a look at the mixer layout of any DAW; Logic, Pro Tools, Reaper, Ableton even GarageBand. It is the standard way to lay things out.

AnthonyB

Feedback on Mixer layout.

If you think of the current mixer layout in thirds with Tracks | Master | Buses
I suspect many people are going to be influenced by any physical mixers that they have worked on as to whether they find this layout 'makes sense' to them.
I much prefer a left-to-right 'signal flow' approach where your Tracks -> Buses -> Master
I've also seen plenty of mixing desks where the buses are grouped off to the right and the Masters are in the centre.

Damir

AnthonyB Feedback on Mixer layout.

I think the reason behind the masters on left is they will be in view at all times and are the most likely faders you need to tweak , that is not a big problem it’s the triple fader control on track 1 that I don’t get and the difference of one fader section to all the others and the confusing SOLO function on a stereo track yet no solo functions on multitracks , this is fing with my brain.

AnthonyB

AnthonyB I'm finding multi-track audio playback, to multiple busses, to be broken in Build 1747.
Pretty sure it was working fine in previous builds.
I'm also still getting the crashes when an audio interface is plugged in, so I'm being careful to reboot my iPad, unlock it, plug in audio interface, wait 30 sec, then launch ST4. Any crash, repeat process.

My setup is:
Audio interface/mixer: Behringer X32 USB connected
Sample rate: 48kHz

ST4 Buses:
Bus 1 - Backing - connected to X-LIVE 27/28 (i.e. stereo backing tracks feeding to 2 channels on X32 mixer)
Bus 2 - ClickCues - connected to X-LIVE 29/30 (stereo file with Drum Click panned hard Right, Cues panned hard Left and feeding to 2 channels on X32 mixer )
Bus 3 - Vocal - connected to X-LIVE 31 (this is a mono audio file contain a guide vocal recording)

Audio Files:
Some songs the files are all formatted .WAV 16-bit 48kHz. Some song the files are all formatted .MP3 16-bit 48kHz 320kbps. No mixing of file formats or sample rates, etc.
Each song will have 3 audio files (BTW, why does the numbering in ST4 start at Zero? That's weird... anyway..)
0 - Stereo Backing tracks - routed to Bus 1
1 - Click & Cues - routed to Bus 2
2 - Guide Vocal - routed to Bus 3

With Build 1747 I seem to only be able to get 1 audio file to work on multitrack song playback.
I've tried changing which Bus connects to with input on the audio interface.
I've tried changing which file routes to which Bus.

In my default config above, I am only getting File 0 (Backing Track) through Bus 1

I then when to troubleshot by changing some routing to see what happens:
0 - Stereo Backing tracks - routed to Bus 2
1 - Click & Cues - routed to Bus 1

I now only hear File 1 (Clicks & Cues) through Bus 1.
So at this stage it might feel like only Bus 1 is working…

I then changed:
File 0 (Backing Tracks) to Bus 2
File 1 (Click & Cues) to Bus 3
I then started to get some constant buzzing sound…
Hit Play, even more Buzzing sound (and no actual audio files playback).. Then after about 5 seconds all audio cut out.

I think the audio engine for multitrack audio is quite broken in this Build 1747.

I've been re-testing this with Build 1763 and am still unable to get multitrack playback into my Behringer X32.
ST3 on same iPad using same selected inputs - no problem.
ST4 - in the ST4 mixer I can see signal from all the tracks, and on all the buses, so I have to assume that inside ST4 multitrack audio is working.
From there, I can change the selected X32 audio inputs assigned to the Buses but I will ONLY ever get the FIRST pair of outputs that receive signal. Any audio routed to other inputs (via other Buses) never receive any signal.
I've changed which Bus routes to which X32 input and they all work, but only for the first input to receive audio signal from a Bus. From then on, no other inputs will receive signal.

So this would be an issue in the way the ST4 audio engine is talking to the X32 as an audio interface?
@peter I'm not sure what I can send you to help troubleshoot this?

I did also try creating a Song from scratch to rule out something weird going on with songs themselves that came in from my original ST3 import, but no change in behaviour.

Damir

AnthonyB So this would be an issue in the way the ST4 audio engine is talking to the X32 as an audio interface?
@peter I'm not sure what I can send you to help troubleshoot

I will fire up my CQ18T and see what I can do and find with multitrack mode.

peter

There is too much traffic on this thread. If I want to be able to make any progress I need to limit my time spent on the forum heavily. So from now on, I will read everything but limit my comments.

MarkGuitar Way too many ways I could crash the song. Pls, can we have an option (options) to have a safe playback mode which will (optionally) disable all these options.

I will add more safeguard options similar to ST3 later on.

Mattjohnson I lead the youth worship team at my church (I do other things with Stage Traxx as well, but this is the best example). I buy multitracks from Loop Community that have stem tracks, but I want the master output of the stems equalized so the volumes aren’t all over the place. (for FOH and my in ear pack)

The only way to do that would be to use a kind of mastering limiter AUv3 in the bus output.

Beejaywh agreed but whi I’ve wanted for a long time (and requested at the beginning of the ST4 project) is to have more assignable midi output (send) buttons, 8 rather than the current two.

I will add more when the worst bugs are gone.

Chemabazan With so many user cases and needs, why not implement different “profile/views” with different UIs?

Sorry, will not happen. I tried that in ST3 with the list only view and the main player and I had too many support requests because people don't read the manual and don't realise how to switch views.

musicadi arranging songs from A-Z doesn't take into account diacritics. In Hungarian, we have A, Á etc... Currently Á is listed after Z

Added to my todo list.

AnthonyB So this would be an issue in the way the ST4 audio engine is talking to the X32 as an audio interface?
@peter I'm not sure what I can send you to help troubleshoot this?

Send me a support email via settings. I might see something in the logs.

KEckhoff Discovered small bug(?) related to panning of multitrack. Have imported all my ST3 tracks were click is panned hard left and everything else is panned hard right (from old fashion 2 channel phone out setup). All buses are set out to 1/2. When starting a song all tracks are output to both left and right, once I click on the mixer button it changes to correct panning. Same for all songs.

Will investigate. Most likely pan is not set correctly in the audio player when loading a song.

musicadi Thbk you! I actually had no crash after importing my ST3 backup, but the progress bar showed 0% and then it appeared like nothing happens, but the backup was restored.

I have now received a crash report that hints in the right direction and would also explain why no progress is updated. I hope this will be fixed in the next update.

Damir So now with this idea we have a total of roughly 36 channel strips with the master section disappearing to the right the more tracks you use, this is looking worse and worse the more I play with it.

With up to 32 tracks and 16 output buses. There is no way to have everything on one screen. So either it will be scrolling (inevitable anyway when you think of iphones in portrait mode) or tabbing. I could create 3 tabs: tracks, buses and master. Maybe that would be faster than scrolling.

TimRyland or me, ST4 is looking and feeling great. The things I wanted in ST3 are there. My only outstanding fault is that MIDI CC’s are not sent when track loads,

Already on my todo list, but the list grows faster than I can work on it. Please be patient.

Damir Even though I placed every track on a different bus my mixer received them all on bus 1/2. ST4 is not sending audio correctly , the audio also goes fuzzy on some track and then I also get a buzz introduced in the mix.

I will investigate this. It was working at some point but I guess I might have broken it with an update.

Lishy hi Peter, in the latest build my lyrics are no longer being highlighted.

I will investigate.

DickyDutch The queue function is behaving strangely - if you tap a song lower down the queue to bring it to the top, the song moves to the top ok but the one that was originally at the top moves down and is duplicated! This must be a bug surely?

I don't see any songs being duplicated.

KEckhoff

Hi,
Discovered small bug(?) related to panning of multitrack. Have imported all my ST3 tracks were click is panned hard left and everything else is panned hard right (from old fashion 2 channel phone out setup). All buses are set out to 1/2. When starting a song all tracks are output to both left and right, once I click on the mixer button it changes to correct panning. Same for all songs.

Guess the idea with ST4 will be to control "hard panning" with the buses rather than panning the tracks itself, but still looks like a bug since in changes during playing.

Damir

MarkGuitar Mark, what I meant by IKEA was a joking reference that you buy things at IKEA but then you have to build them which is a pain staking experience known by everyone, what I mean by majority is saying that we at least have something on the plate to present customers at fist glance , the rest of us more professional users can either beef it up or tone it down .
Sorry if my writing is a bit witty but we in Australia like to joke a bit.

Damir

MarkGuitar I assume it is because all DAW type mixers (and physical mixers desks for that matter) most commonly have input channels to the left and groups and busses to the right. This mimics a logical left to right signal flow. It makes perfect sense to me. If you are unsure take a look at the mixer layout of any DAW; Logic, Pro Tools, Reaper, Ableton even GarageBand. It is the standard way to lay things out.

So now with this idea we have a total of roughly 36 channel strips with the master section disappearing to the right the more tracks you use, this is looking worse and worse the more I play with it.
I was expecting a simple 20 Chanel strips maximum
And a simple button on every ch strip to open a load in audio function all needed functions to operate the audio entry and manipulation on this mixer not involving SONG DETAILS as well to load a file . A simple how many tracks do you need , select either 2 to 16 or any number in between once you have your channel need on the song simply hit a button on every channel to load a file and select its output options and you are done.

musicadi

peter Thbk you! I actually had no crash after importing my ST3 backup, but the progress bar showed 0% and then it appeared like nothing happens, but the backup was restored.

EDIT: the layout of the buttons is A LOT better now. Great!

MarkGuitar

Damir So now with this idea we have a total of roughly 36 channel strips with the master section disappearing to the right the more tracks you use, this is looking worse and worse the more I play with it.
I was expecting a simple 20 Chanel strips maximum
And a simple button on every ch strip to open a load in audio function all needed functions to operate the audio entry and manipulation on this mixer not involving SONG DETAILS as well to load a file . A simple how many tracks do you need , select either 2 to 16 or any number in between once you have your channel need on the song simply hit a button on every channel to load a file and select its output options and you are done.

Well this is an example of you wanting to tell Peter how to design the app for your needs alone. Previously you stated you wanted the app to work for the majority. One of the major improvements of ST4 was to allow for a greater number of audio stem tracks. The limitation on track and bus numbers in ST3 was the reason I was unable to use it and I for one am very happy with the changes.
Whilst the cosmetics of the mixer do need a bit of tidying up (text wrapping etc) the basic concept of the layout is great and very intuitive. Thank you @peter

I don’t know what Peter feels about the feedback being given here, but I feel that writing great long posts wanting the app to be fundamentally re-designed is not the objective. We need to work with what we have (which is mostly great) and suggest adjustments to the workflow where appropriate. Not expect the basic design to be re-written. And obviously report any bugs found. That's my thoughts, I may be wrong. But by doing this I suspect we will all end up with a stable, usable app far more quickly.

TimRyland

Peter,

For me, ST4 is looking and feeling great. The things I wanted in ST3 are there. My only outstanding fault is that MIDI CC’s are not sent when track loads, however I have overcome this by putting the required CC at a start time of 1 second and this work great. I’m not a power user like many of the other, only having around 20-30 songs which I use for busking, so ST4 is working great for me, definitely like the new layout.

Damir

MULTICHANEL operation finding using CQ18T

I created 3 multichannel tracks to see what happens .
Even though I placed every track on a different bus my mixer received them all on bus 1/2. ST4 is not sending audio correctly , the audio also goes fuzzy on some track and then I also get a buzz introduced in the mix.
Solo function seems to work on ch 1&2 but ch 3 does not solo the audio it mutes it , by disengaging it audio comes back.
I will stop testing for now as it’s pointless the whole multitracking function has a major hernia
Good luck with it Peter!

AnthonyB

Damir MULTICHANEL operation finding using CQ18T

Thanks for testing and validating that it isn't just me have issues with multitrack audio out to multiple inputs on mixer via multiple buses.

Lishy

peter hi Peter, in the latest build my lyrics are no longer being highlighted.

musicadi

Lishy Works here. Maybe you had some custom settings?

Lishy

musicadi nope it’s all as it was.

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