ST3 Tempo feature?

jzavaletta

peter TY! I was thinking it could be bundled with the "loop" feature since they may rely on each other... TY for everything you do.... JZ

peter

I have started working on this feature for version 3.8. So what will be possible is a visual metronome. Not in the waveform view as suggested because that is already too crowded and constant flashing interferes with the region highlighting. That is confusing as hell.

What works well is to flash a colored border around the lyrics/pdf view. That's very easy to see and does not interfere with other important information.

Each song already has a bpm field. I will add a switch to song details that enables the metronome for a song no matter what type of song. I don't see a reason why there should be a separate metronome tempo field.

Regarding audio: That's unfortunately not possible in the 3.x versions. The current audio engine is not able to play samples at predefined time intervals. And I can not generate a click track on the fly when a song is loaded. There are many more challenges implementing the audio part (like different sounds which might have copyrights , volume settings, audio routing, ...) which is simply too much for this update as I don't want to rebuild the audio engine to make this possible. But I will consider this for the audio engine in version 4 which will be built from the ground up.

jzavaletta

peter THANK YOU!

Damir

Hi Peter, the visual metronome idea sounds great , I have some questions and suggestions , will you have it so it is active as soon as you select a song without playing the song so it gives you an idea of what is to come before you start?
If so, will you have a way to find the tempo of every song so you can enter it in to the tempo setting of each song.
Like, tap along with the playing song and it works out the tempo and then allows you to use this tempo in the song tempo setting?
That way everything can be done in ST3 itself without using external apps.
Suggestion , a tap button next to song tempo setting so you simply play the song and tap on the side button that gives you a tempo reading that then is put in to the tempo setting of song, and once it is in there the visual tempo reacts to this settings if it’s enabled in settings.
Another suggestion is to have the capability to turn off the highlighted beat one so you can choose first beat highlight on or off.
This would be very helpful and simple to use for obvious reasons, in my case I won’t have to program the very time consuming sections of songs with no audio as i don’t use a click track because I use the audio I hear and the visual programming I do in lyrics, so this would then make it even simpler to finish a backing track.
Just thinking as I write, it would be handy to keep the metronome going even when you stop so you can addlib with it and it resets itself to the new audio section loop start
Cheers Damir

Lishy

Damir why would you need a tap button if it’s already set to the bpm of the song? At least that’s how I read what Peter was saying it’d work.

Damir

Lishy why would you need a tap button if it’s already set to the bpm of the song? At least that’s how I read what Peter was saying it’d work.

It would be great if ST3 could automatically recognise the tempo of every song and know it in settings, but I don’t believe that’s what will happen as it’s probably asking too much of the technology available, I believe if you load a song in without it having a tempo figure already programmed you will have to enter the tempo setting manually so my suggestion is to be able to simply work out the average tempo you have a function so you can find this tempo without having to go back to a DAW to find it .
Not all audio that gets loaded in to ST3 will have tempo information.
I believe without this information the visual metronome will not work accurately.
I am just pointing things out without knowing what Peter is actually doing and hopefully end up with something we can actually use with ease and purpose.
If it’s added but doesn’t do much for us then it’s just adding more complexity to ST3 , I am sure Peter is on the ball because he’s a musician but there’s no harm in bouncing ideas around.

peter

No tap button. You set the tempo in song details. And it will start playing as soon as you hit play. That way the visual metronome is in time if your song starts directly on a beat. I have tested that and it works pretty well. Of course if your song does not start on a beat, the metronome is not usable but that should not be an issue with lyrics only songs.

Damir

peter so basically

peter No tap button. You set the tempo in song details. And it will start playing as soon as you hit play. That way the visual metronome is in time if your song starts directly on a beat. I have tested that and it works pretty well. Of course if your song does not start on a beat, the metronome is not usable but that should not be an issue with lyrics only songs.

Sorry Peter but I don’t see any advantages of the metronome apart from giving you a visual tempo setting if you don’t use backing audio.
If you don’t start on the beat or if your tempo setting is wrong you will be out of sync, so how will it exactly help us , firstly you need to have the song start on the beat secondly if you don’t have an accurate tempo setting it will not be in time and thirdly if you select a song and you perform live on the intro you don’t get a visual metronome so you can confidently use the visual cues to perform so when you start your backing it will be at the correct tempo , all these things are needed otherwise it’s just very simple indicator to help you perform if you don’t use synced lyrics, I was thinking it was going to be a help for everyone , where you can find a tempo of and audio track enter it to the song, once a song is loaded the screen automatically flashes to the songs beat allowing live song intros and once you hit play perhaps then use the first audio loops timecode to sync up to the audio track since most loops begin on the first beat and the first loop is normally an intro.
This way you give us an accurate beat indicator so when backing track starts it mashes nicely and even if you have a gap in your start the first loop pulls the visual click in to perfect sync.
As long as you have an accurate average tempo you will remain in pretty good visual sync for a normal song length , you could use loops beginnings to resync the visual click as most beginnings start on the beat 1.

Anyway just a thought.

If the visual click is not accurate it will be more of a nuisance than an aid, and if it’s to hard to make accurate it won’t be used , if it’s to basic and doesn’t do anything useful it won’t be used.

I won’t say anything else until I see it in action, I’m sure you thought about all this already
Cheers Damir

peter

This feature was requested for lyrics only songs. For these it will work perfectly fine. You can also use it on all other song types but then it will only work if playback starts on a beat.

Damir

peter This feature was requested for lyrics only songs. For these it will work perfectly fine. You can also use it on all other song types but then it will only work if playback starts on a beat.

That’s a pity, because it would be great to have a visual tempo available on screen as you load a backing track because I have a number of songs where I start playing live and then introduce the backing track, it would be great to be in perfect time every time as I start the backing, plus ST3 loops are fantastic to use if you stop in the middle of a song and get the crowd involved now you choose your next loop a visual click being present on screen while stopped would keep you in sync so when you hit start on the new loop point you are very close to perfect tempo, ST3 was mainly designed with using backing tracks in mind, so I believe this visual click should be aimed at people using backing tracks not lyrics only users.
Also entering a correct tempo in to already existing songs should be easy, just tap on a button while a track is playing and get an average tempo number then just place it in to the Song tempo setting, this should be available to us in ST3 so we don’t have to use other time consuming means , once all our tempo settings are correct a simple filter where you just enter a tempo value and all songs with that tempo are presented so you can easily continue the show and the vibe.
To me these little things make a big difference when performing as they are a quick aid to keep things rock and rolling.

jzavaletta

TY Peter, I don’t understand why you would need this if you already have a backing track. Unless one is planning to change tempo of the track? And why would you do that? SMH

Damir

jzavaletta I don’t understand why you would need this if you already have a backing track. Unless one is planning to change tempo of the track? And why would you do that? SMH

I totally agree that a simple visual metronome would be very helpful for those that just use lyrics without backing, thats fine.
And yes we don't need a click track or a visual click when we can hear a backing track and use the lyrics screen with timed cues on screen while the song is playing.
But there is a need for a visual click with songs you start without engaging the backing track, it would be very helpful to have a visual indicator of the tempo of the song backing you are about to blend in to , and there are times when i do stop the playback and get the crowd singing and clapping but i have just lost all sync and if this pause is long enough i might loose the tempo slightly to the new loop point i am about to trigger to keep going, so by continually having a visual click on screen will help me to stay in sync so i can trigger my new start knowing i haven't at least changed the tempo which will sound bad, what i would like is to have freedom to exit the backing and enter it on any loop point with confidence.
I hope that makes more sense.
So firstly i need to have the correct tempo setting of all songs secondly i need to have an instant start on a beat of all songs and in my case i start all my songs on a beat and all my loops have perfect looping throughout the whole song so no matter where i want to go i just select the section and i can manoeuvre around all of my song in perfect time, which allows me to stop the backing and start whichever loop i choose as they mostly all begin on beat 1,
Its like having a live band behind you and freedom to manipulate the audience in a similar way a live band does.
And its simple to setup thanks to Peters looping design.
There are other scenarios that this could help which i wont try and explain here.
I hope i have explained myself more clearly.
Cheers Damir

peter

I think I wrote this dozens of times but getting a metronome in sync with existing audio either requires that your audio file starts exactly on a beat and has a constant tempo, then the current solution will work fine. Or ST3 needs to detect the beat grid in the audio file which it can not currently do and with the mathematics knowledge I have, all my experiments so far in this area lead to unsatisfactory results that only worked for a low percentage of audio files.

And regarding the metronome continuing when stopped: ST3 always has a bit of a delay when starting playback. I can not get that in sync with a metronome that is already running. So even if you would start playback on the visual beat and the audio files would start exactly on a beat, the metronome and playback would be off. The audio engine is not designed for realtime manipulations.

Damir

peter And regarding the metronome continuing when stopped: ST3 always has a bit of a delay when starting playback. I can not get that in sync with a metronome that is already running. So even if you would start playback on the visual beat and the audio files would start exactly on a beat, the metronome and playback would be off. The audio engine is not designed for realtime manipulations.

You are the technological expert Peter, i am just mouthing off ideas in case it triggers a different perspective in your mind and perhaps gives us a workable end result, so what you are saying is you cant use the beginning of loops time-codes to re trigger the start of preset visual click that has been locked to the songs tempo setting, the way i see it a visual click is an add on bit of software that gets activated when a song is loaded , you have an option in settings to turn it on/off and it obeys the tempo set in your song , if turned on every song when loaded without playing it will immediately display this visual click , once you start a song no matter where it starts if the song has a loop in it, the beginning timecode of that loop restarts the visual metronome count, this then gets you in sync , so i don't see the beginning delay being an issue , all you need to do is set one loop that starts on the first beat of the song and you are in sync if you have numerous loops they just refresh the visual click that obeys the song tempo setting, this then gives us the ability to stop whenever, then select another loop and when play starts visual click re syncs using the timecode of that loop which re triggers the visual click to first beat , but it always obeys the song tempo setting of that song.
Now thats my view of how i would approach the design , BUT IS THIS TECHNICALLY DOABLE IS SOMETHING ONLY YOU KNOW and if its not its fine, perhaps when apple allows greater flexibility and ease of design we might get what we need.
I think the simple add on will be great for the lyrics only users.
Cheers Damir

rushak

I for one would love this feature even if it's just for a lyric only song. I just came across this scenario at last rehearsal where my bandmates wanted to try some different covers on the fly which required my drummer to switch to a different app to run a click. Keeping everything within ST3 would be amazing.

What I would love even more is being able to adjust the tempo of my multi track songs on the fly and adjust the time triggers for lyrics/midi when the band wants to try the song at a different tempo. Currently, I have to go back to the DAW to mix down to the new tempo's and then adjust my time triggers. I'm sure this would be a pretty monumental task to do and I have zero complaints about how it is today.

Thanks for all you do Peter!

Jason

peter

@Damir I thought a bit longer about your request with showing the metronome when stopped and now I think that makes sense. It is sometimes really useful to know the tempo of song before playback starts. So each song will not only have a trigger to turn the metronome on or off, but one of the following options: off, visible when stopped, visible when playing and always visible

@rushak The problem is that it needs a lot of processing power to timestretch all tracks in realtime. On older devices this would prevent stable playback.

Damir

peter So each song will not only have a trigger to turn the metronome on or off, but one of the following options: off, visible when stopped, visible when playing and always visible

I think having those options in song details would be fantastic for each song as some songs would not need the metronome and some might only need it at the start while others might be stopping and starting throughout the song so this would give them greater confidence when doing these type of crowd pleasing manoeuvres, if possible I would still have an overall enable disable of this feature in settings as the quick master control , basically the visual click control would be set up like an audio mixer principle each song is like one channel of the mixer and the master volume is the full mix of channels going through it.
To make this feature really sing if possible have a simple tap button next to the song tempo setting so when you play the song you simply tap to the beat to get its average tempo then you can enter this figure in to the Song Tempo which then gives you an accurate visual click it also updates the loop edit grid and provides valuable info when searching for a particular tempo song.
If this setting is not correct it makes everything kaput.

dsc66

I wasn’t sure if this belonged here or in a separate thread, but I opted for here as a tempo feature is something i would also find useful, but I would prefer to use an external Device instead of a flashing screen. I like my SoundBrenner Pulse linked to Ableton via Ableton Link.
Stagetrax is great for its simplicity but not being able use the Pulse is something I miss.

To work with StageTraxx integration of the AbletonLink library would be required. Potentially many other benefits for those that want to link/sync to desktop apps as well. Any way, a link to the API docs…. https://ableton.github.io/linkkit/ for future consideration.

Damir

dsc66 a tempo feature is something i would also find useful, but I would prefer to use an external Device instead of a flashing screen

Why do you want ST3 if you are using Ableton or other external devices? ST3 is a stand alone player that gives you lots of on stage features that lacks a visual temp display introducing a Daw to run in parallel defeats the usefulness of having a simple quick to setup player that almost does it all.
Can you perhaps explain your need in more detail so we can possibly support you in your need.
Cheers Damir

dsc66

Ok , I was not clear. I don’t want Ableton on stage, im a long way from ever wanting that although I will admit I had considered the idea before I came across ST3, but I would have only been using it as a complicated ST3.

ST3 meets my needs as a chord/lyric sheet and a click and automated patch changes. Simple and great.

Having said that, it would be super useful to make use of my soundbrenner pulse metronome to help me keep time, in preference to a flashing screen. At home, when practicing I will do one of 3 things:
1 Play along to my metronome
2 click/backing track in st3 or generic drum machine track
3 play my backing track in ableton, in order to sync my metronome to it.

As i understand it, and i might have it all wrong, the ableton link interface is not just for ableton. The soundbrenner pulse is a vibrating metronome that uses the sdk to communicate and as such if ST3 used the sdk, I believe ST3 could send the soundbrenner the bpm and start it pulsing. The pulse could also be used to send start/ stop signals to ST3 instead of a midi pedal which is also super useful.

Damir

dsc66 it would be super useful to make use of my soundbrenner pulse metronome to help me keep time, in preference to a flashing screen.

What does the soundbrenner do that is so different to the ST3, if it creates a sync sound, ST3 can do that, if it has a visual click hopefully Peter is creating one that will beat anything on the market.
To create an Audio metronome on ST3 just create a 4 bar click sound of your choice set at 120bpm name it Metronome and set a permanent loop on it then you can use the speed control to vary the speed , to make it even more easy and powerful you can use all the 24 loops and have preset tempos in each name the loops to whatever you want 3/4 2/4 6/8 4/4 tempo 4/4 120. 4//4 130 etc, place all the loops to permanent looping name the song METRONOME colour it a colour to easily see it amongst your song files and use it whenever or how ever you want to suit you music style , and once the visual metronome compliments it you will have the most powerful metronome on the planet, so why would you need an external tack on metronome?

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