V4 gig impressions

Damir

Vedeja I see no showstoppers for the app to be released as-is

You either run very simply or you are a very brave person. Much braver than me 🥵 I can’t afford to loose any more hair 😂
ST4 still needs polish to get close to ST3 quality on stage.
If you run simply then why not just use ST3 for now till ST4 is ready?

Vedeja

Damir I run ST more than simple but I am brave. However, ST4 releasing will not likely mean I will migrate to it immediately. I’m talking about it from the perspective of the developer not wanting to get stuck in beta. Anyway, it will be his decision how to proceed.

Damir

jaytrax good decision, I won’t be using it live till it puts a smile on my face, I am still finding things that need tweaking and fixing.
I am not in a hurry to update and don’t want to put Peter under pressure, one thing at a time if fine.

Damir

Sharonzaz you are brave indeed,
All very good feedback.

musicadi

Wow, sounds like you were really frustrated when you wrote this, but .... why in the world would you use a beta software at a live gig? 🙂

That said, I wouldn't see myself ever in a situation where I would need to apply EQ or FX to a track from within StageTraxx.

I mean, most, if not all of us, have their tracks already mixed and balanced, and I don't think anyone needs more than volume, mute and maybe pan for each track when using multitrack backings.

Regarding moving faders, I think the idea is to be able to change the volume of a track or bus without having to precisely touch the fader itself, and for me personally It's a lot better. I do wish there was a visual feedback though when the fader is activated by you touching it, but Peter wrote he wants it to only change color when it actually changes its value.

What I really love is the fact that you have a unified window in ST4 and that you can control everything from it, as opposed to ST3.

There is still optimizations to be done, and Peter is doing a great job as usual.

The best thing is that he considers all the feedback, and don't take it personally, but I think it would be more helpful if the feedback would sound like constructive criticism instead of whining 🙂

Cheers,
Adrian

Sharonzaz

Wow, sounds like you were really frustrated when you wrote this, but .... why in the world would you use a beta software at a live gig?

Because I can 🙂
yes I was frustrated, i made it pretty clear 🙂

Helping Peter properly taking the "car" for proper drive and not just up and down the road once.
I know exactly what I am facing now and what to expect. I'm an all in kinda guy.

What I noticed in the rehearsal studio with my ST iPad using the USB connection into my Behringer X32 mixer was that the output of ST4 by default was slighter higher than ST3

Ahh yes. I forgot this, I had to lower the master quite a bit in ST4 to match the volume of the guitar and vocals
(which is set) and then actually i heard St4 is overdriving/clipping the output of the iPad digitally.

Now maybe others like to mess with songs on a per gig basis but this would indicate your mix isn’t right from the start ( I’m saying this in general not at @Sharonzaz personally)

I mean, most, if not all of us, have their tracks already mixed and balanced, and I don't think anyone needs more than volume, mute and maybe pan for each track when using multitrack backings.

I've seen many ppl say this, so I need to respond.

I make my own tracks, they do not sound flat and mastered like those from KV etc, they are kept dynamic and most important,
while there is a compressor/limiter on the master of Logic Pro, during bounce of the individual tracks
the compressor behaves differently. it works differently on drums, bass etc.
for that reason I asked for the ability to run FX on the master of ST4, i would no need any FX on the busses.
everything i need is already on the stem tracks.
now, it took me a few gigs to fiddle and get ST3 to balance all songs (currently 540 ish)
and so new songs dont really need much touching.
but oh boy did i need to fiddle last night?!?!?!

and so, besides the obvious, wanting to give Peter my perspective and feedback regarding ST4
this was my way of knowing if currently ST4 would serve me at gigs, and the answer is mostly NO.
not like this. I will need to setup my whole rig and sound and play all my tracks so I wont need to touch the
mixer and the gigs, and likely run every song 2, 3 times to be sure.
so sure, last night my post was a bit of a knee jerk reaction but to me it represents my true thoughts and feelings
about the app. looks great, amazing features but not ready.

The app is fantastic, but I think Peter needs to treat it as an app for backing tracks & lyrics… not as a digital mixer, we have to get the tracks ready before and “if” something is needed we still have the main PA mixing board right?

Sorry, I do not agree. ST3 has a digital mixer, albeit a very simple one, but still.
ST4 offers a greatly updated version and I dont see why I need to take one or more extra pieces of gear
just because 'you' think I should.
the mixer on the app just needs to act more like a mixer. then it'll be fine, master fx or no master fx,

ST3 and Helix allowed me to finally narrow down my setup to iPad, Pedal, mic stand and guitar. the rest is obviously the sound system, but i do gigs where sometimes sound is available there and i just send them L/R.
You have no idea how many years I have showed up to a bar gig or a house party with a massive setup that takes 2 hours to rig, cables and all.
No, that over. Im well into my 50s now and not 25. after 15,000 gigs or so I earned the right to choose
and want something that works for me in all avenues, not just quality, but simple, effective, slim lined etc.
i've dreamt about a setup like this (then with the band, now by myself) since the 90s.

So I will keep testing and giving my voice. but for now ST4 will "stay at home"

have a nice day everyone. It's just a subjective thing. everyone must find what works for them.

Damir

Sharonzaz you have said it exactly how I feel I’m in my 66 es with I don’t know how much under my belt and I’m in the same boat ST4 is a step forward in some respect but a few steps backward in others , firstly it’s no where near reliable sound wise it might be only a small technical tweak away but only Peter knows, the layout of the software is the same as ST3 which is fine , nothing wrong with that , the getting around the app is more direct and nicer but it still needs minor polish,
The mixer is nice but as you say it needs to be a proper mixer , I don’t like the touching anywhere idea, it’s too dangerous to stuff things up, you touch what you need and you move it , I believe with a good balance in tweaking the screen settings we should be able to swipe left right and not upset the faders, other software out there does it nicely.
I have a lot more to say just like I did with ST3 but for now I just wanted to say good on you for saying it as is.

MarkGuitar

Sharonzaz I've seen many ppl say this, so I need to respond.

I make my own tracks, they do not sound flat and mastered like those from KV etc, they are kept dynamic and most important,
while there is a compressor/limiter on the master of Logic Pro, during bounce of the individual tracks
the compressor behaves differently. it works differently on drums, bass etc.

I have to agree here. The idea of getting everything sorted in ten DAW is not entirely possible when exporting multiple-track stems.
The concept of mastering applies (mostly) to the final mix and adjustments applied to the output stereo mix. IE, the addition of EQ etc to the stereo output (in fact most pro mastering software only works with a stereo mix)
If on the other hand you are exporting multiple stem tracks, you are not able to apply the all important final EQ and limiting processing that would be sat on the stereo mix bus. The exported stems are not going out via the stereo bus. If they were, all you would have is a stereo mix. And applying EQ and limiting to every stem output is not realistic.
So, yes, if you are only using a stereo mix as you playback audio in ST, you can master in the DAW. But if you are using multiple stems, it doesn’t work.

So if you are using a mixer that does not have the ability to place effects (limiter, eq, compressor) on the stereo bus, the ability to do that in ST and then just send a ‘mastered’ stereo out to the PA from ST would be a huge benefit.

Personally, our outfit don’t need it as we use either a Behringer X32 or a A&H CQ18. But for those users with analog mixers or mixers that don’t have this capability I can see how useful it would be. But as Peter said, it sounds like a big change to ST.

Just my thoughts, pls correct me if you think any of this is wrong 🙂

peter

Thanks for the feedback so far. These are valuable insights and I will try to address them in future updates. But these changes can not lead to a complete redesign of the app. But I will try to tweak the major pain points to make it work better.

The beta period for version v3 lasted 7 months back in the day. I originally envisioned releasing v4 until the end of the year, but I will not force a release of a product that does not feel finished. I hope we will not need 7 months beta testing again, but the beta needs more time, it will get more time.

So to summarise the pain points:

Mixer Double Tap: is a two sided sword, some users want it some don't. Maybe this needs a setting so that it can be enabled during editing and disabled when performing?
Mixer Touch Area of Faders: When I perform, I don't want to have to hit a small knob to move the slider. Touching anywhere is a big plus. It does interfere with the scrolling yes, but maybe the issue is the need for scrolling in the first place? So moving to layers in the mixer might be the better approach as it will no longer require scrolling in most setups.
Bugs & Sluggish Performance: The beta still has bugs and is performing sluggish. No question about it but we are still very early in the beta and these will be ironed out.

Regarding the sound: The only difference in sound quality between ST3 and ST4 is that ST4 no longer has the 6dB safety margin. The output by default is 6dB higher than in ST3. Songs migrated from ST3 might lead to distortion, so it would be safer to run your master at -6dB to get the same output volume as ST3. Or maybe I should adjust the song volume by -6dB when migrating from ST3?

Sharonzaz

Regarding the sound: The only difference in sound quality between ST3 and ST4 is that ST4 no longer has the 6dB safety margin. The output by default is 6dB higher than in ST3. Songs migrated from ST3 might lead to distortion, so it would be safer to run your master at -6dB to get the same output volume as ST3. Or maybe I should adjust the song volume by -6dB when migrating from ST3?

ja, makes sense now, i dropped buss 1 (my new master) by over a DB and the master master by about 4.5
only then it kind of matched my guitar and vocals, aside from EQ adjustments.

the sluggishness in the app affects overall performance, from selecting the next song, clicking xfade, opening and operating the mixer etc. I get it's a beta, that part is on me for doing a gig with it.
I did go back to ST3 a couple times to try balance the sound and have some sort of reference as sound check was not an option last night.

but the beta needs more time, it will get more time.

It does, and we are here with you as long as it takes.
I will continue to nag about certain things as well 🙂

Sharonzaz

one of the things to remember about ST4 is now more stems, and so I bounces more.
in some songs more than double. some strings for example were mixed in with other tracks and were quite soft to not overwhelm the mix, this i learned from experience. Now i've exported this strings louder, and at home tried to balance it but its "never the same" at home, hence the need to "fiddle"

I have that option, why shouldn't I use it? and when you have that many songs, you cant possible run them all at home
on your sound at gig levels, only then to hear whats what.
oh yes, rehearsal time 🙂
I don't, one man band. I learn the song as i record it and try it once or twice as it hits my iPad.
at the gig the levels change. and so....I need that mixer to act like a mixer.
🙂

Sharonzaz

Mixer Double Tap: is a two sided sword, some users want it some don't. Maybe this needs a setting so that it can be enabled during editing and disabled when performing?

maybe. maybe only dbl tap on the slider knob?

Mixer Touch Area of Faders: When I perform, I don't want to have to hit a small knob to move the slider. Touching anywhere is a big plus. It does interfere with the scrolling yes, but maybe the issue is the need for scrolling in the first place? So moving to layers in the mixer might be the better approach as it will no longer require scrolling in most setups.

Layers? more steps to get to where I need to?
maybe just disable the touch anywhere but the slider to move the slider?
maybe make the slider a little bigger/longer? = easier to "grab"?

You do not need to rewrite, i said from the beginning, it is an amzing app. functionality is what
i find affects its usability in some cases.

I cannot ever tell you how to do what you do, i can only give my impressions on how it works LIVE for me.

peter

Sharonzaz maybe. maybe only dbl tap on the slider knob?

Or maybe generally disable double tap when playback is running?

Sharonzaz maybe make the slider a little bigger/longer? = easier to "grab"?

Maybe the mixer should generally use the full screen? I mean if you need it, the bigger the better and if you don't need it, it should not be visible at all.

Vedeja

peter
Good thoughts. Safer(limited) mixer behavior during ongoing playback and more allowing when stopped.

Damir

peter Maybe the mixer should generally use the full screen? I mean if you need it, the bigger the better and if you don't need it, it should not be visible at all.

Perhaps that’s the answer, because if you need to tweak EQ or you bring up the plugins, they cover your lyrics anyway so why not hog all the realestate and make the windows larger. I normally tweak on my side mixer but if I need to tweak on the device I’m normally doing this off stage anyway so why not make me smile .
Perhaps a simple vote for existing mixer size or a larger mixer size.

Sharonzaz

peter Maybe the mixer should generally use the full screen? I mean if you need it, the bigger the better and if you don't need it, it should not be visible at all.

no, I like the fact you can see a couple of lyrics lines.

peter Or maybe generally disable double tap when playback is running?

in my QU you can dbl tap to reset the channel but it asks you, yes. no.

I am scratching my head, honestly. why you made a mixer, but you dont want it to behave like one.
I am really failing to understand this,
youve made a new gen bicycle but it has squares for wheels.

the app is perfect in so many ways. I love the new action buttons, the regions buttons, the views, the mixer and the fact you can see all of the above at the same time.
why on earth are you trying to reinvent the "wheel"? keep is round.
why complicate??
an option to not dbl tap? why? keep the double tap on ONLY THE SLIDER KNOB. same for scroll.
is this so difficult to implement?
I have no understanding of coding, but I am guessing it'll take as many lines of code to
do what I am suggesting, as just ADDING more functions to make the mixer even MORE confusing and difficult?
there is a universal way of working every digital mixer, why make it different here? really really asking.

MarkGuitar

peter Maybe the mixer should generally use the full screen? I mean if you need it, the bigger the better and if you don't need it, it should not be visible at all.

Full screen mixer gets my vote. If you are fiddling with the mixer you can’t possibly be performing at the same time. Hence why would you need to see any performance related items at the same time?
People keep banging on about making the workflow better. Totally agree. But surely there is a ‘workflow’ in the way we setup and run a gig?
IE. Don’t we do sound checks, setup the sound (ie use the mixer), then perform (ie don’t use the mixer).
We occasionally have a sound guy run our sound at bigger gigs, but he won’t be using ST to do that, I am talking generally about the smaller gigs.
I may be off-beam here, pls correct me if I am (I am sure you will 😄)

peter

Sharonzaz I am scratching my head, honestly. why you made a mixer, but you dont want it to behave like one.

What do you mean by that? In what way does it behave not like a mixer? The drag anywhere is actually an idea I got from Allen & Heath CQ Mix app where you can drag the slider anywhere.

MarkGuitar

Sharonzaz an option to not dbl tap? why? keep the double tap on ONLY THE SLIDER KNOB. same for scroll.

I really like the dbl tap on the rotaries. In fact it is more useful than the slider as they are more fiddly to adjust. And every DAW I have ever used does that on rotaries, so it certainly isn’t a square wheel.

Sharonzaz

Ill tell you what, let me make it very simple and short:

how much do i need to pay you to add just 2 more multitracks to ST3?
because aside from the function buttons and the region buttons, the ability to NOT pitch shift the drums
thats all I need to have a simple gig life.
really

I am willing to part with some money just for those things added to ST3, which I am guessing isnt an option.

Damir

Sharonzaz the ability to NOT pitch shift the drums
thats all I need to have a simple gig life.
really

Not being a multitrack user YET! Isn’t that just a normal thing where you tell the mixer which are your percussion tracks and the pitch shift has no effect, I would have thought that was normal.

musicadi

Sharonzaz What?! You don't like pitch shifting the drums?! ;-)

Sharonzaz

peter

The CQ is the worst mixer they made. Most complicated, silly menus, it’s not a shit mixer but it it by far the worst example of a toy.

That is my opinion 🤓

Maybe a long press for anywhere to move the slider. But not a quick one, not while you scroll.
Quick touch on the fader but long press anywhere
But again, complicating things

I mean take a look at all other reputable digital mixers and see how their apps behave.

I know I’m giving some personal perspective. But this is from a real live gigging experience. I’ve done a few thousand gigs with ST3. I can continue to do the rest of my life on ST3.
I am loving some new features and options but not at the expense of my comfort, ease of use etc.
I already know I’ll need to put serious time to make ST4 work for me, but some things are unnecessarily complicated. Unfriendly.
I’ll remind you that the only time I’ve ever said something that is a must have for me in ST3 was when you took out the master fx on the stereo out when using multitracks.

musicadi

Sharonzaz on my side, I had the faders moving (and get stuck as "active") when using the 4-finger swipe gesture to switch between apps, so yeah, I think preventing the faders from moving as soon as you get anywhere near them could be a good idea.

A longer press seems like a good idea, and maybe also a visual feedback, so you can see you just activated that given fader. I don't know... make the fader button bigger, make it change to another color, or something

MarkGuitar

Sharonzaz The CQ is the worst mixer they made. Most complicated, silly menus, it’s not a shit mixer but it it by far the worst example of a toy.

That is my opinion 🤓

Hmmm, can’t agree with this. I use one on our smaller gigs and it is awesome.
As per my previous post, why would you be fiddling with a mixer whilst performing? OK, the odd corrective tweak, but for the main part, isn’t that what soundcheck is for?