Open Beta Version 4.0.0

jaytrax

Mattjohnson you wouldn’t want to normalize stems of a multitrack

A shaker mixed low and then normalized would not be relative to the guitar or piano etc

It would be to use for for a stereo track

TimRyland

When I select a song in my playlist, or a song finishes and it moves to the next song, the MIDI load command:-
(; Set BN patch (04) and KGO patch (01) when song loads.

[midi: PC04@1, CC01.0@1] ),

doesn’t happen. I use this to change presets on my Katana:GO. Any time based MIDI commands in the song are working.

peter

Damir Peter, Just place it in a safer spot not so close to stop start button

Understood. I will get rid of the two buttons beside the play button and then we need to think about how layout the bottom toolbar with a nice big play button, the mixer and song details button and the rest of the space should be usable for assignable buttons (if there is any space available). But there needs to be a gap between the play button and the assignable buttons. Did I get that right so far?

Damir If I was using Queue I would expect it to be where song list exists so when you select a playlist and go back to QUEUE it’s exactly like if I go to lists chose a setlist

OK, I will move the queue to the sidebar. But I think it is important. So the queue button will stay available. If you don't need it, you don't need to press it.

I will also try to change the way edits in the playlist are handled. If the "tap to add to queue" option is on (the default). Any change to the current playlist will be updated in the player.

Mattjohnson Is the normalize volume button on the tracks functional yet?

Yes it is. It changes the track volume to the normalized volume calculated. But the change might be subtle so I guess I should add a short popup to which value it changed.

Remember: Normalization only makes sense for full stereo mixes. Never for multitrack stems!

DickyDutch You should have received the crash report earlier via email

I got a crash report via Testflight but there was no crashlog attached.

Damir Here is an example , when the two songs are far apart the now playing song and the next song and you are foot scrolling to get to either one , once the scroll speed picks up in speed it’s a lot easier to notice a full line colour change then just a small side area.

Any opinions from other users? Should the whole song background be covered in the indicator color?

TimRyland When I select a song in my playlist, or a song finishes and it moves to the next song, the MIDI load command:-
(; Set BN patch (04) and KGO patch (01) when song loads.

I will take a look.

peter

New beta build 1747

The feedback so far is very good. But it can be a bit overwhelming. Let's focus on the important things first:

Audio performance
General performance issues
Crashes
Usability during a gig (so basically how the interaction in the main view works)

Once we have this dialed in, we can move on to the editors and other views. But for now we need to focus on the really important parts.

Changed

Removed queue warning from playlist view

Fixed

Possible crash in lyrics viewer and editor
Possible crash opening mixer
Possible crash when changing number of possible mix buses
Possible crash when connecting new audio interface
Audio crackles when expanding or toggling mixer view
Possible audio dropouts when scheduling audio regions
Choppy fader and equalizer movements in mixer
Double tap on volume fader not working

Damir

peter

peter Possible crash in lyrics viewer and editor
Possible crash opening mixer
Possible crash when changing number of possible mix buses
Possible crash when connecting new audio interface
Audio crackles when expanding or toggling mixer view
Possible audio dropouts when scheduling audio regions
Choppy fader and equalizer movements in mixer
Double tap on volume fader not working

After updating and restarting my iPhone ,
I didn’t notice the audio crackling anymore when mixer fully expanded.
The audio dropouts are still happening ,
The now playing song indicator is still missing on the now to play selected song.
I found a bug , choose a song now scroll the audio segments to the end of song, now choose another song, you will notice the new song does not show the beginning in actual fact on occasions it does not even start playback from the beginning.this happens randomly .
Just to add this happens also when the song plays through and cues up the next song, two things don’t happen the now to play song indicator is not there and the new songs beginning is not displayed until you hit start , then the beginning loop shows up but the now playing song indicator is still missing , the next song indicator is showing as expected.

Now I might be dreaming but I suspect that all my lyrics are not changing in time like they use to in ST3, I am pretty fussy and consistent when it comes to time coding, I believe all my songs are changing lines slightly late, has anyone else felt that?

Lishy

Damir interestingly I’ve just tested the same song on 2 iPads running ST3 and 4.
The timestamping is identical but what I did notice is there’s more of a lag when pressing start on ST4 but if I press play ever so slightly later the lyrics run identical.

I also noticed that the song clock does not run smoothly. It jumps to the next second quickly every 3rd second but then seems hold longer on the 4th second which then brings it back in time.

I also noticed that when you get to the end of a song the time elapsed is 1 second shorter than the duration. I.e if the song is 3.34 the time elapsed will show 3.33.

Damir

Lishy interestingly I’ve just tested the same song on 2 iPads running ST3 and 4.
The timestamping is identical but what I did notice is there’s more of a lag when pressing start on ST4 but if I press play ever so slightly later the lyrics run identical.

I normally time stamp all my lines on the AND before beat 1, but all my songs change lines on beat 1 now , the reason I do that is I want to see my next lines in place just before I need them to avoid the sudden movement at the most crucial time.
I wonder if Peter has compensated this in the new software but if that’s the case the lyrics should be changing on beat 4 sooner rather than later.
We’ll see what Peter thinks , perhaps we are dreaming 😂

Damir

Lishy but if I press play ever so slightly later the lyrics run identical

Which software you start later and is music in sync.
I would assume you delay ST4 to sync up with ST3 but than the audio would not be in sync ?

Lishy

Damir I did the test on a lyrics only song and I delayed pressing play on ST3 so they matched.
The lag in the play button might just be a sensitivity thing.
I’ll test a multi track song.

Damir

peter Understood. I will get rid of the two buttons beside the play button and then we need to think about how layout the bottom toolbar with a nice big play button, the mixer and song details button and the rest of the space should be usable for assignable buttons (if there is any space available). But there needs to be a gap between the play button and the assignable buttons. Did I get that right so far?

I definitely use both of those buttons and believe they need to exist on the main surface , but not in those spots , I didn’t mind them on the sides like in ST3 but now that we have more realestate there’s no reason not to have them as defaults but to be replaceable by other functions others might prefer,
I think more people need to comment , I personally think they are a very useful tool not just when live performing without remotes but for those practicing their parts to be able to instantly engage a loop or disengage it when done, also normal music lovers using it as a music player you simply hit the XFade to the next song is a very easy and normal expectation , not to mention the would be if they could be party DJs that want a simple mix to next song , I think the buttons should stay but be placed in a safer spot , and then we need to be able to add other programable buttons around the Stop Start without getting too close , these buttons to be as small as possible to fit in the space we have on iPads and reduced number for iPhones differing in number depending on orientation.
This way we all get what we need and want .
A safe work zone and plenty of buttons to organise our work flows.
I always think of the people using this software without remotes as they are a bonus to more needy on stage.
I also think this software should be simple enough for my wife that wants to use it when we go on long walks without me needing to help her.
The day that happens we have all succided😂

MarkGuitar

Damir I think more people need to comment , I personally think they are a very useful tool not just when live performing without remotes but for those practicing their parts to be able to instantly engage a loop or disengage it when done, also normal music lovers using it as a music player you simply hit the XFade to the next song is a very easy and normal expectation , not to mention the would be if they could be party DJs that want a simple mix to next song

Felt I had to chime in here. As far as I am aware, the ‘mission’ of the app is not to be a simple audio playback device a-la iTunes, or a DJ playback software. As stated on the very first few lines of the ST web site, it is designed for the gigging musician. To expect it to cover the bases for playing a bit of background music at home or for a DJ is going to hamper it’s use for which it is stated. There are dozens of music players and DJ playback apps out there already.
Bottom line is. When using it to play tracks in a live gig environment, reliability is key. Not just of the app itself but of the interface so that mistakes are minimised.
Having rewind, loop and crossfade enabled whilst a track is playing is just allowing the inevitable disaster to happen. EG, I want to scroll up the lyrics a bit whilst playing and I accidentally hit the rewind button. Bang, song stops and restarts, disaster.
If we must have these buttons available pls, pls either disable them during playback (ie a ‘safe’ mode option), move them out of harms way, or remove them.

Thank you

TimRyland

If I use the “i” button to edit a song from the Playlist, after making the change on return to the Playlist the Green ‘Current Song’ indicator on the left is missing.

peter

Damir The audio dropouts are still happening ,
I found a bug , choose a song now scroll the audio segments to the end of song, now choose another song, you will notice the new song does not show the beginning in actual fact on occasions it does not even start playback from the beginning.this happens randomly .

Can you send me a short video showing these issues? I have a hard time reproducing any of them. I guess I am doing something different compared to you.

Damir The now playing song indicator is still missing on the now to play selected song.

I can finally see this issue. It only happens within a playlist. Not in the song list. Will fix it.

Damir Now I might be dreaming but I suspect that all my lyrics are not changing in time like they use to in ST3, I am pretty fussy and consistent when it comes to time coding, I believe all my songs are changing lines slightly late, has anyone else felt that?

The screen refresh rate is 5 fps. In ST3 it was running at 30fps. That explains the difference. I guess I will have to increase it which will eat up more cpu unfortunately.

Lishy The timestamping is identical but what I did notice is there’s more of a lag when pressing start on ST4 but if I press play ever so slightly later the lyrics run identical.

Startup lag should be lower in ST4. I guess what you see is the lower refresh rate in ST4. That most likely also applies to the clock.

Lishy I also noticed that when you get to the end of a song the time elapsed is 1 second shorter than the duration. I.e if the song is 3.34 the time elapsed will show 3.33.

Yes, there is some rounding discrepancy. I will have to take a look at that.

Damir I definitely use both of those buttons and believe they need to exist on the main surface , but not in those spots , I didn’t mind them on the sides like in ST3 but now that we have more realestate there’s no reason not to have them as defaults but to be replaceable by other functions others might prefer,

You can add them as assignable buttons.

TimRyland If I use the “i” button to edit a song from the Playlist, after making the change on return to the Playlist the Green ‘Current Song’ indicator on the left is missing.

I can confirm. Will be fixed.

DickyDutch

Would it be possible to assign ‘assignable buttons’ to increase and decrease master volume please?
A performers mixer may not be accessible to them when needing to make an overall volume adjustment. This feature is currently available in ST3 via the Queue volume adjustment at the bottom of screen but not included in ST4 (only indirectly via the mixer which not as user friendly imo)

Sharonzaz

Downloaded, restored ST3 backup
iPad Pro M2

Firstly, congratulations 👌 what a nice jump into the future.

Took a minute to get familiar with this.

Feature request- please allow trouble tap separately on play and stop. I only use this on stop. 🙏

Bugs, something weird with the lyrics. Firstly, not every song does the auto scroll/highlight thing.
I can tell those songs by the fact that the top of the lyrics isn’t showing, like the song starts with the lyrics
Already scrolled up a little.

2- time code are all a little late. Not by much but definitely not on time.

Aside from needing to assign all my tracks to one buss (1) and then click to buss 2 it seems that most other things work ok for now (10 mins on the app only)

I am not sure why but having trouble with the cross fade. Not sure if I’m doing it wrong but I can’t fade in. Only when I set the play button to fade in. Again not sure if it’s my mistake or a bug.

Will carry on and report back.

Not sure if there’s a manual, I’ll look and if there’s one I’ll read through it.

Please must be an option to disable the manual scrubbing during playback 🙏🙏
When I close the app and reopen the buss output and mute resets
I set buss 2 for click and it’s muted

Beejaywh

Firstly, thanks Peter, a lot of hard work.

My initial findings without going through everyone else’s comments (although I have looked at a few)

iPad Air 5th gen, 256Gb os18.6.2

The interface on every function is very sluggish so much so that I doubt I could realistically gig with it
Some of the colour commands such as teal blue are inoperative
Having a global “double tap” option is causing me issues. I only require it for the stop button not the others. I know that you can add an assignable button but I really want to be using the play stop in the same way as previous.
The crossfade button is really important for my sets.
If “double tap” is enabled the assignable “start crossfade” button doesn’t work either by single or double tapping
I have no idea what the midi file option in the song details does or its format, can you please explain
I cannot see displayed if a song is pitch altered on the main screen. I used this a lot to let me know how I had altered the song (it used to be in the song list beside the title) to enable me to know where to pitch my voice especially on songs without an intro. Can it be displayed either where it used to be or on the main screen somewhere?

That’s all I have on my initial look. Best wishes

AnthonyB

I know there is always a risk doing this of the loudest voices being the only ones heard. Even when consciously termpering this, it can still influence thinking. @peter maybe we need a few surveys/polls to ALL ST users to collect feedback on how certain features were (or weren't) being used in ST3 to better shape ST4? The polls don't mean this is a democratic decision as you ultimately shape the direction of the app, but it would provide a more data-driven input.

I think polls would also better help understand the different profiles of users, and uses, e.g.

Musicians that heavily interact with the UI directly during their shows, e.g use audio regions to jump around songs, use crossfade, use start/stop, use a playlist but manually select songs out of it rather than playing through it sequentially, etc.
Musicians that lightly interact with the UI directly during their shows, e.g. Just song Start/Stop, don't use audio regions to skip to other parts of a song, don't use crossfade (or maybe just once for a specific song highlight/feature), etc.
Musicians that do not interact directly with the UI during their shows (i.e. it is a host device and is primarily controlled via triggers or another device)
DJs (and similar) primarily using it for stereo music playback
Other?
...and within certain features you could delve into how people use those features, e.g..

Crossfade is the obvious first example, and just reading through every comment (and I know you also get support emails to add to your input that we don't see) that it seems there are very distinct groups of users:

Those that use it live and need it on the front UI
Those that do not use it and do not want it on the front UI to avoid risk of hitting it
Probably a middle, possibly smaller group (again, all guesses), that rarely use it, or only trigger it therefore don't really care about what is on the UI as they don't touch it during a gig, etc.

But you could also check in on:
Audio playback - multitrack audio vs stereo audio
Lyrics - static (manual scrolling via UI as needed), auto-scrolling, timestamped
etc..

AnthonyB

peter The screen refresh rate is 5 fps. In ST3 it was running at 30fps. That explains the difference. I guess I will have to increase it which will eat up more cpu unfortunately.

Ouch. Yes please! I thought I was imagining things with the behaviour/timing of my timestamped lyric sheets just not feeling the same, but that likely explains it.

Again, acknowledging your adveristy to the idea of advanced settings for power users, but a fps slider is something that could be so easily put in advanced settings. For those that need fluid interface updates, high fps. Those that are running their ipad as a multitrack audio with real-time effects host device but NOT as their lyrics/main UI device, low fps in favour of CPU to other functions.

peter No, there was simply no room for the waveform. But if it is important for the majority of users to sacrifice some lyrics area for a waveform view, I would be open to making the change.

When I saw this my first concern was that we had lost the ability to move the play head manually to be able to Cue Up to specific part of the song. But no, we can still do it which is great. That said, I seem to be able to move the play head while a song is playing - ST3 used to prevent this. In ST3 I had to stop a song, cue up the play head, then hit play. Is that an intentional change? I prefer it this new way, but I can see others being concerned about accidently hitting that section of the screen and jumping a song ahead during playback.

MarkGuitar

AnthonyB Crossfade is the obvious first example, and just reading through every comment (and I know you also get support emails to add to your input that we don't see) that it seems there are very distinct groups of users:
Those that use it live and need it on the front UI
Those that do not use it and do not want it on the front UI to avoid risk of hitting it
Probably a middle, possibly smaller group (again, all guesses), that rarely use it, or only trigger it therefore don't really care about what is on the UI as they don't touch it during a gig, etc.

But you could also check in on:
Audio playback - multitrack audio vs stereo audio
Lyrics - static (manual scrolling via UI as needed), auto-scrolling, timestamped
etc..

100% agree that there are a variety of users. And the views put forward here (IMO) represent a tiny portion of people actually using ST for live gigging. I am a member of the ‘BackingTracks’ group on Facebook which has a large number of members and I see ST mentioned as playback apps of choice over and over. So yes, the loudest voices here should not be the ones that get what they want at the cost of usability and reliability for those using the app for what is was designed; “the gigging musician”.
And yes, for me and I suspect others, cross-fade is a rarely/never use option. Sure have it in the app for those that do use it but not at the expense of the app being less reliable to use for those who do not. IE keep it out of the way pls.
Same with rewind, next/prev song. I can see no reason to have these options armed whilst a track is playing. If you are rehearsing, just stop the track, press rewind and start again. To have rewind/next/prev button ‘live’ whilst playing/performing is like playing with a loaded gun.

Re audio playback as multitrack vs stereo, isn’t an increase in multitracks one of the main reasons for ST4? It was certainly the only reason I was unable to use ST3 professionally. I have been stuck with Ableton waiting for a supported iPad app to appear that can handle 10 or more stem tracks. At last it is here in ST4.

Auto scrolling lyrics are fine, I use them all the time, but sometimes I need/want to adjust the lyric position on-screen. Having live rewind buttons etc on screen whilst I am touching the screen to adjust lyrics is way too risky for me. We move around a lot whilst playing, we are not sat in a chair calmly singing/playing.

So thanks @AnthonyB for raising this. All good points. Ultimately it is @peter decision as to where he takes his app. I trust he will make it a solid reliable app for the gigging musician. And the work done so far in ST4 is awesome, thank you!

MarkGuitar

AnthonyB ST3 used to prevent this. In ST3 I had to stop a song, cue up the play head, then hit play. Is that an intentional change? I prefer it this new way, but I can see others being concerned about accidently hitting that section of the screen and jumping a song ahead during playback.

There is no way I could use an app that allowed me to accidentally jump around in a song just by tapping the screen in the wrong spot. I am starting to think (hope) that Peter will relent on his reluctance to add more options/settings and have at least a “Safe Playback” mode where all this skipping around things are disabled if the song is playing and safe mode is enabled. Pls!

Our performance method is; Talk/connect with the audience, play a song, talk to the audience, play a song etc. Are we so unusual? Is everyone doing mashups and montages or skipping around? Admittedly we are a ‘mere’ covers band, but our audience come to hear a song done as authentically as possible. We don’t repeat the chorus 5 times or play 20 minute jam-out solos. Maybe it’s just us that’s boring 😄

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