Open Beta Version 4.0.0

Damir

peter Yes, I will change that. The question is: In ST3 when you made certain edits to a playlist loaded into the player, some things did update the player (like autoplay settings) and some things didn't (like changing the song order). I didn't like this and wanted to make it consistent. So I decided that editing a playlist will not update the player. Only after you tap on a song in the playlist, it will update the player. Therefore the message. But I need your feedback here: How would you expect the app to react when editing a playlist that is loaded in the queue?

Because I don’t use queue , and I don’t understand to why we have a playlist mode that goes through a queue system because it is the main player, I and probably a number of us are confused by the two , I assumed there was a player on its own and two different ways of organising your playlist that go through this player.
That’s why I keep asking to give us a setting option to run using playlist method or the queue method , but it seems I am not understanding exactly how you are programming the player section .
I run very simply, all my 2800 songs are in SONGS and coloured appropriately depending of their purpose about 500 songs are coloured green which are my backing tracks
They reside in a master backing playlist which I then create my gigs from , these playlists are named to the gig , I create an order of songs in these playlists that I might need but have options to search or foot control to select the next songs , I don’t need or want to use Queue because I rely on my previous gigs to create new gigs It’s a lot simpler and faster to do this and as I update my song choices I place all new songs at the top of my list that way I can easily see my newest songs in all gigs , every gig has all my songs just arranged in different order , I can easily step through the songs to choose the next song or scroll down past the 40 to fifty pre organised songs as after that all my other songs are in alphabetical order . This means when I start a gig my first 40 to 50 songs are pre planned and I can easily skip or jump around this list without switching to any other pages and my foot controller can do things without extra foot pedal commands.
So Queue to me can be way in the background out of my view and not hogging up interface space, but I understand people do want to run Queue mode so my suggestion is give them what they want so it’s just like playlist mode but this option should be a simple choice in settings, once you make a choice that’s how you roll , you don’t confuse us with two different operations.
If I was using Queue I would expect it to be where song list exists so when you select a playlist and go back to QUEUE it’s exactly like if I go to lists chose a setlist and get set list as a player the difference is the way this area behaves and it’s a choice we select in settings , it basically changes the operational logic of that area if you don’t want all the songs in a playlist then create a playlist that suits your need and open it up in QUEUE MODE , simple to understand , it uses the same area of operation and can get rid of that confusing QUEUE button that has red number of songs, and frees up this space to be used by something more useful like the Auto play button that can loop a song and is hogging up space in an area that looks like a tack on/afterthought and not very user friendly , you could kill a number of birds with one stone here.
Simplifying the interface,
Giving QUEUE users a much nicer operational environment.
And a much more logical software most would understand .
I am sorry but I never liked the Queue way of operating but it obviously suits some users and I respect that we all have different needs I just hope we all get a greater user experience from bashing ideas around.

peter

Damir Peter, Just place it in a safer spot not so close to stop start button

Understood. I will get rid of the two buttons beside the play button and then we need to think about how layout the bottom toolbar with a nice big play button, the mixer and song details button and the rest of the space should be usable for assignable buttons (if there is any space available). But there needs to be a gap between the play button and the assignable buttons. Did I get that right so far?

Damir If I was using Queue I would expect it to be where song list exists so when you select a playlist and go back to QUEUE it’s exactly like if I go to lists chose a setlist

OK, I will move the queue to the sidebar. But I think it is important. So the queue button will stay available. If you don't need it, you don't need to press it.

I will also try to change the way edits in the playlist are handled. If the "tap to add to queue" option is on (the default). Any change to the current playlist will be updated in the player.

Mattjohnson Is the normalize volume button on the tracks functional yet?

Yes it is. It changes the track volume to the normalized volume calculated. But the change might be subtle so I guess I should add a short popup to which value it changed.

Remember: Normalization only makes sense for full stereo mixes. Never for multitrack stems!

DickyDutch You should have received the crash report earlier via email

I got a crash report via Testflight but there was no crashlog attached.

Damir Here is an example , when the two songs are far apart the now playing song and the next song and you are foot scrolling to get to either one , once the scroll speed picks up in speed it’s a lot easier to notice a full line colour change then just a small side area.

Any opinions from other users? Should the whole song background be covered in the indicator color?

TimRyland When I select a song in my playlist, or a song finishes and it moves to the next song, the MIDI load command:-
(; Set BN patch (04) and KGO patch (01) when song loads.

I will take a look.

Mattjohnson

Is the normalize volume button on the tracks functional yet? When I’ve clicked it on multiple songs, nothing has happened. Also, is it possible to normalize all of the tracks at once instead of individually for a multitrack file

jaytrax

Mattjohnson you wouldn’t want to normalize stems of a multitrack

A shaker mixed low and then normalized would not be relative to the guitar or piano etc

It would be to use for for a stereo track

DickyDutch

Have just loaded ST4 onto my iPad but had a crash when trying to import my latest ST3 back up.
You should have received the crash report earlier via email . PS had no problem importing the same backup to my iPhone. Cheers

Damir

peter I do miss the full line being coloured as it was very easy to see and follow, perhaps this could be a visual option that don’t need it , I find it very reassuring to what song is doing what.

I got some feedback that this is too much, therefore I toned it down a bit. But I am open to coloring the background if this is what most users want.

Here is an example , when the two songs are far apart the now playing song and the next song and you are foot scrolling to get to either one , once the scroll speed picks up in speed it’s a lot easier to notice a full line colour change then just a small side area.

I really miss that comfortable feeling of knowing at a glance what’s what.
Also I have mentioned before the now playing song side indicator does not work at all on occasions on the now selected or playing song this I believe to be a bug.
I also don’t understand the temporary highlighting on a touched song, is this a bug?

DickyDutch

Is there a way to suppress the note saying “The songs from this play list are queued. Changes won’t affect the queue” once it appears? I find it a little irritating! Cheers

TeabagTim

peter How would you expect the app to react when editing a playlist that is loaded in the queue?

I would expect that the queue is also updated.

peter In ST3 when you made certain edits to a playlist loaded into the player, some things did update the player. some things didn't (like changing the song order)

I also noticed that during a gig when we changed the order 😆 (but we saw it and could correct it then)

Damir

peter The visual indicator on the side does not appear on the now selected song which is ready to hit play, this has happened quite regularly, the next song in line does get its yellow indicator show up but the now to play song is not highlighted.

I have never seen that. Are you sure you are not in another playlist?

Definitely not, I test everything in the one playlist, this has happened a number of times but it seems to be only on the now to play or the playing song selection , the next song indicator seems to always work .

TimRyland

When I select a song in my playlist, or a song finishes and it moves to the next song, the MIDI load command:-
(; Set BN patch (04) and KGO patch (01) when song loads.

[midi: PC04@1, CC01.0@1] ),

doesn’t happen. I use this to change presets on my Katana:GO. Any time based MIDI commands in the song are working.

Damir

peter Understood. I will get rid of the two buttons beside the play button and then we need to think about how layout the bottom toolbar with a nice big play button, the mixer and song details button and the rest of the space should be usable for assignable buttons (if there is any space available). But there needs to be a gap between the play button and the assignable buttons. Did I get that right so far?

I definitely use both of those buttons and believe they need to exist on the main surface , but not in those spots , I didn’t mind them on the sides like in ST3 but now that we have more realestate there’s no reason not to have them as defaults but to be replaceable by other functions others might prefer,
I think more people need to comment , I personally think they are a very useful tool not just when live performing without remotes but for those practicing their parts to be able to instantly engage a loop or disengage it when done, also normal music lovers using it as a music player you simply hit the XFade to the next song is a very easy and normal expectation , not to mention the would be if they could be party DJs that want a simple mix to next song , I think the buttons should stay but be placed in a safer spot , and then we need to be able to add other programable buttons around the Stop Start without getting too close , these buttons to be as small as possible to fit in the space we have on iPads and reduced number for iPhones differing in number depending on orientation.
This way we all get what we need and want .
A safe work zone and plenty of buttons to organise our work flows.
I always think of the people using this software without remotes as they are a bonus to more needy on stage.
I also think this software should be simple enough for my wife that wants to use it when we go on long walks without me needing to help her.
The day that happens we have all succided😂

peter

New beta build 1747

The feedback so far is very good. But it can be a bit overwhelming. Let's focus on the important things first:

Audio performance
General performance issues
Crashes
Usability during a gig (so basically how the interaction in the main view works)

Once we have this dialed in, we can move on to the editors and other views. But for now we need to focus on the really important parts.

Changed

Removed queue warning from playlist view

Fixed

Possible crash in lyrics viewer and editor
Possible crash opening mixer
Possible crash when changing number of possible mix buses
Possible crash when connecting new audio interface
Audio crackles when expanding or toggling mixer view
Possible audio dropouts when scheduling audio regions
Choppy fader and equalizer movements in mixer
Double tap on volume fader not working

Damir

peter

peter Possible crash in lyrics viewer and editor
Possible crash opening mixer
Possible crash when changing number of possible mix buses
Possible crash when connecting new audio interface
Audio crackles when expanding or toggling mixer view
Possible audio dropouts when scheduling audio regions
Choppy fader and equalizer movements in mixer
Double tap on volume fader not working

After updating and restarting my iPhone ,
I didn’t notice the audio crackling anymore when mixer fully expanded.
The audio dropouts are still happening ,
The now playing song indicator is still missing on the now to play selected song.
I found a bug , choose a song now scroll the audio segments to the end of song, now choose another song, you will notice the new song does not show the beginning in actual fact on occasions it does not even start playback from the beginning.this happens randomly .
Just to add this happens also when the song plays through and cues up the next song, two things don’t happen the now to play song indicator is not there and the new songs beginning is not displayed until you hit start , then the beginning loop shows up but the now playing song indicator is still missing , the next song indicator is showing as expected.

Now I might be dreaming but I suspect that all my lyrics are not changing in time like they use to in ST3, I am pretty fussy and consistent when it comes to time coding, I believe all my songs are changing lines slightly late, has anyone else felt that?

AnthonyB

peter Possible crash when connecting new audio interface

Just had multiple crashes when connecting audio interface with Build 1747.
Crash Logs sent.

Lishy

Damir interestingly I’ve just tested the same song on 2 iPads running ST3 and 4.
The timestamping is identical but what I did notice is there’s more of a lag when pressing start on ST4 but if I press play ever so slightly later the lyrics run identical.

I also noticed that the song clock does not run smoothly. It jumps to the next second quickly every 3rd second but then seems hold longer on the 4th second which then brings it back in time.

I also noticed that when you get to the end of a song the time elapsed is 1 second shorter than the duration. I.e if the song is 3.34 the time elapsed will show 3.33.

peter

Damir The audio dropouts are still happening ,
I found a bug , choose a song now scroll the audio segments to the end of song, now choose another song, you will notice the new song does not show the beginning in actual fact on occasions it does not even start playback from the beginning.this happens randomly .

Can you send me a short video showing these issues? I have a hard time reproducing any of them. I guess I am doing something different compared to you.

Damir The now playing song indicator is still missing on the now to play selected song.

I can finally see this issue. It only happens within a playlist. Not in the song list. Will fix it.

Damir Now I might be dreaming but I suspect that all my lyrics are not changing in time like they use to in ST3, I am pretty fussy and consistent when it comes to time coding, I believe all my songs are changing lines slightly late, has anyone else felt that?

The screen refresh rate is 5 fps. In ST3 it was running at 30fps. That explains the difference. I guess I will have to increase it which will eat up more cpu unfortunately.

Lishy The timestamping is identical but what I did notice is there’s more of a lag when pressing start on ST4 but if I press play ever so slightly later the lyrics run identical.

Startup lag should be lower in ST4. I guess what you see is the lower refresh rate in ST4. That most likely also applies to the clock.

Lishy I also noticed that when you get to the end of a song the time elapsed is 1 second shorter than the duration. I.e if the song is 3.34 the time elapsed will show 3.33.

Yes, there is some rounding discrepancy. I will have to take a look at that.

Damir I definitely use both of those buttons and believe they need to exist on the main surface , but not in those spots , I didn’t mind them on the sides like in ST3 but now that we have more realestate there’s no reason not to have them as defaults but to be replaceable by other functions others might prefer,

You can add them as assignable buttons.

TimRyland If I use the “i” button to edit a song from the Playlist, after making the change on return to the Playlist the Green ‘Current Song’ indicator on the left is missing.

I can confirm. Will be fixed.

Damir

Lishy interestingly I’ve just tested the same song on 2 iPads running ST3 and 4.
The timestamping is identical but what I did notice is there’s more of a lag when pressing start on ST4 but if I press play ever so slightly later the lyrics run identical.

I normally time stamp all my lines on the AND before beat 1, but all my songs change lines on beat 1 now , the reason I do that is I want to see my next lines in place just before I need them to avoid the sudden movement at the most crucial time.
I wonder if Peter has compensated this in the new software but if that’s the case the lyrics should be changing on beat 4 sooner rather than later.
We’ll see what Peter thinks , perhaps we are dreaming 😂

Damir

Lishy but if I press play ever so slightly later the lyrics run identical

Which software you start later and is music in sync.
I would assume you delay ST4 to sync up with ST3 but than the audio would not be in sync ?

Lishy

Damir I did the test on a lyrics only song and I delayed pressing play on ST3 so they matched.
The lag in the play button might just be a sensitivity thing.
I’ll test a multi track song.

MarkGuitar

Damir I think more people need to comment , I personally think they are a very useful tool not just when live performing without remotes but for those practicing their parts to be able to instantly engage a loop or disengage it when done, also normal music lovers using it as a music player you simply hit the XFade to the next song is a very easy and normal expectation , not to mention the would be if they could be party DJs that want a simple mix to next song

Felt I had to chime in here. As far as I am aware, the ‘mission’ of the app is not to be a simple audio playback device a-la iTunes, or a DJ playback software. As stated on the very first few lines of the ST web site, it is designed for the gigging musician. To expect it to cover the bases for playing a bit of background music at home or for a DJ is going to hamper it’s use for which it is stated. There are dozens of music players and DJ playback apps out there already.
Bottom line is. When using it to play tracks in a live gig environment, reliability is key. Not just of the app itself but of the interface so that mistakes are minimised.
Having rewind, loop and crossfade enabled whilst a track is playing is just allowing the inevitable disaster to happen. EG, I want to scroll up the lyrics a bit whilst playing and I accidentally hit the rewind button. Bang, song stops and restarts, disaster.
If we must have these buttons available pls, pls either disable them during playback (ie a ‘safe’ mode option), move them out of harms way, or remove them.

Thank you

TimRyland

If I use the “i” button to edit a song from the Playlist, after making the change on return to the Playlist the Green ‘Current Song’ indicator on the left is missing.

AnthonyB

peter The screen refresh rate is 5 fps. In ST3 it was running at 30fps. That explains the difference. I guess I will have to increase it which will eat up more cpu unfortunately.

Ouch. Yes please! I thought I was imagining things with the behaviour/timing of my timestamped lyric sheets just not feeling the same, but that likely explains it.

Again, acknowledging your adveristy to the idea of advanced settings for power users, but a fps slider is something that could be so easily put in advanced settings. For those that need fluid interface updates, high fps. Those that are running their ipad as a multitrack audio with real-time effects host device but NOT as their lyrics/main UI device, low fps in favour of CPU to other functions.

peter No, there was simply no room for the waveform. But if it is important for the majority of users to sacrifice some lyrics area for a waveform view, I would be open to making the change.

When I saw this my first concern was that we had lost the ability to move the play head manually to be able to Cue Up to specific part of the song. But no, we can still do it which is great. That said, I seem to be able to move the play head while a song is playing - ST3 used to prevent this. In ST3 I had to stop a song, cue up the play head, then hit play. Is that an intentional change? I prefer it this new way, but I can see others being concerned about accidently hitting that section of the screen and jumping a song ahead during playback.

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