Open Beta Version 3.8.0

NeilC

peter awesome Peter the best Application by far
I truly appreciate all your hard work creating this brilliant tool for all us entertainers
Thank you Peter, Genius 🎸👍

Olivier

peter
Hi Peter
Sorry but as you will see in my last post, this latency problem does not seem to be resolved, I am having a problem with this (more details in my post)
Is there a way for me to measure this latency to compare it between a single track song and a multitrack for example, or also between version 3.7.5(8793) and 3.8 (8874) in the different modes please?
Thanks again for all this work

Olivier

Olivier
I add that I have just tested the following:
If I create a single track title with just a kick in audio, and the same audio on a multitrack title, I can see that:

On the single track, we hear the audio at the same time as the Play button turns red (for pause)
On the multitrack, the sound comes after seeing the red color of the button
(I don't know of any other way to measure latency more precisely, sorry ;-)

peter

Damir You are really pushing the boundaries. I have to admit I have never envisioned someone using the export feature to export 377 songs which is more than most users have in their whole library. I thought this feature would be primarily used to transfer a bunch of songs. Maybe 10 or 20 which is more or less exported within a second or so.

Regarding stpl loading: You need to load it with the share with Stage Traxx option. It is meant to send playlists (withou songs) to your bandmates and you will do that most probably via email. So when you receive the file via email it will automatically open it in Stage Traxx.

Olivier Multitrack songs need 250ms to prepare playback. This is necessary to line up all the tracks to play them in sync. There is no way around this. So if you need play to work without delay you have to stick with stereo files. Here the usual delay is about 10ms.

Olivier

peter
Thank you Peter for the answer but it seems to me that this latency was not there even in multitrack on version 3.7.5(8793) right? Have you measured the latency in 6-track multitrack of this version please?
If it is minimal, many users who are used to using it may prefer to stay on 6 tracks without latency than with 8 tracks with difficulties to be in sync live... Not easy.

Damir

peter You are really pushing the boundaries. I have to admit I have never envisioned someone using the export feature to export 377 songs which is more than most users have in their whole library. I thought this feature would be primarily used to transfer a bunch of songs. Maybe 10 or 20 which is more or less exported within a second or so.

Regarding stpl loading: You need to load it with the share with Stage Traxx option. It is meant to send playlists (withou songs) to your bandmates and you will do that most probably via email. So when you receive the file via email it will automatically open it in Stage Traxx.

I use ST3 where playlists are my whole gig , I have all my performance songs in all playlists , for very good reasons, I don’t rely on search as it’s awkward with my AirTurn foot switch hogs the keyboard so my way around it is, I start my whole playlist in alphabetical order then I arrange my 50 first songs I actually am planing for the gig to suit the requirements of the gig and my playlists are actually named to what the gig is, this then allows me to run to plan but if I need to change the order I just use my foot control to find the next required song if it’s not in my first 50 organised songs I can easily use my foot pedal to find the songs further as they are in alphabetical order.
Because I have three devices it’s a lot simpler to just transfer .stsa method as it’s quicker to transfer 4gb of data then full backup 22gb
But you don’t get any idea it’s actually doing anything as there is no wheel spinning around like when you load full backups, the consistency of operation is not there, which is confusing.
Regarding .Stpl files , this should follow .stsa file capability.I don’t have band members so I export and save to local devices , I normally am working on my iPad and when I want to load a song or text I usually use the import on the software then hunt down the folder it is in, then I hit import, I agree the other way is good too and I use that method also, but it’s confusing when you have different methods for different file formats, both systems should be available so things are logical and you can follow some consistent pattern of operation other wise people might not use these facilities which are great when you understand them, but they need to be consistent.

Regarding foot pedal delay , I run AirTurn stomp six and even with stereo files there is a slight delay, I know in multitrack there’s a lot more going on that’s why a greater delay, what I don’t understand is why the buffering doesn't happen as the song/loop is loaded and not while the play button is hit, I would expect instant start as soon as a song is chosen the buffers should be loaded and ready to go.
Is there a technical reason for this?

I have just finished another very big gig and have been let down by the damn screen dropping down again when I hit loops its making me very paranoid to the point of being scared to touch the screen and the foot pedal method is too slow to choose next loop as things are really happening fast when you are manipulating the audience.

peter

Multitrack playback always had 250ms latency in all past versions. I only tried to lower it to 50ms in the first beta version but had to revert that change later as it would lead to out of sync playback on some devices.

Maybe you accidentally enabled the start delay in Settings > Playback Settings if the latency feels bigger than in version 3.7.

Olivier

peter
Thank you for your always precise answers. It doesn't matter, I'll make songs with a single file for times when latency needs to be reduced, it's already great as it is! (I checked my start delay is well positioned at 0.0s, it must have been the same with the previous version you are right, it is difficult to measure when you are not in live condition, I did the test today by activating a metronome and clicking on play but we will especially see in Live situation at the next concert, I can't wait! You have boosted the passion, I will be able to increase creativity thanks to your application).

peter

Olivier Theoretically I could make the start delay configurable but the problem is that if you choose a delay that is too short, you might get slightly out of sync playback of the tracks. And here the issue is that this can vary from song to song. Some songs need only 20ms to start while others could even need 380ms. So I am not sure I want to open up this setting for anyone to change as it could lead to lots of support requests because tracks are not in sync.

@Damir The reason for ST3 preparing playback right before you start it is that the Apple Audio framework is very unreliable in counting time. Preparing the track when you load it can lead to the displayed time being off by a very large amount (even 30 seconds and more) especially when you move the app to the background and back. This is even worse when playing multitrack files as they could be out of sync by multiple seconds. So the only way I found reliable is to prepare playback at the time you start it. Then the timing is working reliably.

Damir

peter the best fix would be for Apple to fix their fruit which I paid $2500 for and expect perfection in performance , they keep coming out with the same product every year with a very slight face change it’s about time they give us better performance😫

royandreno

Over the last two weeks I've used the 3.8 Beta exclusively at my gigs. This weekend alone a total of 11 hours gigging. It worked without a single flaw!! Not a glitch! Absolutely an amazing piece of work, Peter!
My concern is that with all these special needs that people have for ST3, it's gonna become a beast to maintain. Midi for this device, and then another, and yet another, file transfers in all formats, and the list goes on. I see the multi track/stem thing, but even that is going crazy. For nearly 20 years(!) I used a Windows XP program called OnStage Performer. I loved it for its (already then) audio regions, witch was the best thing ever. Yes, they were already there in 2003!
It was developed by two Canadians and as a prime Beta tester I got it working ok. I programmed midi for lights and VoiceLive harmonizer for hundreds of hours. I had two XP laptops for all these years, and I dreaded changing to the iPad world, because no backing track apps had the aurio region solution. Then when I saw that ST3 had the audio regions, I switched, and I swore NEVER to program a single midi command ever again for live shows. My pedal board is manual, harmonizer is aux out/in, and lights are steady. If you can play and/or sing well, the audience don't give a shit about your lights, whether it's flashing or steady, bright or dark. But they care if you sound awful. Keep it simple, please don't ruin the best piece of backing tracks software the world has ever seen with lots of crazy demands. Spend the time practicing instead.
This might not be a positive contribution to 3.8, but I simply get overwhelmed by many of the requests in here.

jzavaletta

royandreno Agree!

peter

royandreno You are absolutely right and it is very hard to decide whether a feature will bring value to many users or will only be helpful for a few while increasing the complexity. And avoiding complexity is currently my number one goal (that I often fail to achieve). There are around 140 options in the app that you can set to your taste and while every option makes sense, this is way too much configurability.

So going forward to version 4 really needs a new way of thinking in this regard without sacrificing anything that might be important. This is a very thin line I hope I will be able to maintain.

Anyway, I have sent 8874 as the release version to Apple. It will be available in a few days. The last open usability issues will be addressed in the next minor updates this month.

Thanks everyone for contributing in the beta test!

jaytrax

royandreno this echoes my thoughts over

peter this echoes my thoughts over the last week or more

Damir

royandreno could not have said it better and I totally agree but because these things exist I and a few others are trying to keep it as simple and logical as possible I totally agree it’s the songs you choose and the quality of performance that counts. The fact that red light is flashing in sequence with the hi hat and the blue light gets triggered by the mid Tom has no real value for effort put in , I rather have a very simple powerful loop system I can massage my audience with and not have the damn screen drop down on me by accident than the capability of manipulating everything to the end degree, the simplest things are the most important, creating loops is easy now and it works a treat, I swore I will never program another midi command that takes a genius not a musician to program as I have spent too many years doing it and it has not made a scrap of difference to my audience.
Good to hear some honest feedback, good on ya Roy.

rowe2000

peter royandreno
Well said!
For version 4, don't rush, but do well!
I mean, version 3.8 is very good! And very very stable!!!

When stability is the number one feature that cannot be compromised in a live performance program,
maintaining stability is not just pure luck, but rather hard work from the developer and Stage Traxx 3 has proven to be very very stable.

..yes I have a few feature wishes too, but stability is the most important one!
The other wishes I will be happy to add a "Version 4 wish list".

But please don't rush version 4, be wise and make it good!
Thank you for the good work so far.

SuperBisDak

royandreno Well said!

royandreno

Thanks for the kind understanding and support from many of you! I was prepared to run for shelter after my posting😁 I'd like to add though, that there are many great suggestions coming in. But for professional gigging musicians, the no 1 priority is stability and trust in your system. I recently did a gig for 450 ppl. Every weekend for the rest of the year is fully booked for me, including two weeks at the Canary Islands at the end of the year.( I live in Norway, go figure why I love that trip😎) The fact that ST3 is now such a glorious, trustworthy, and an outstanding working app, gives me the confidence to take on all kinds of jobs. Again, well done Peter. Hats off to you.

Damir

Hi Peter , sorry to be going back to import export logic and consistency of operation.

Exporting , why not just have all export features available in all windows .
Playlist , this is very logical, you choose a playlist it gives you 3 options then a destination.
But when you hit Edit in playlist you don’t get the three options you must export as .stsa and it doesn’t tell you that, it just assumes you know, why can’t we also have the 3 export options there to avoid confusion and give us flexibility.

Now going to Song mode and Edit , again I choose songs but I don’t get the three options to which type of file I want to export , this just creates confusion and is lacking consistency not to mention flexibility to export what our requirements might be.

Why not have all these export areas have the three options so no matter where we are we can choose to our needs and export without confusion ,
And label the export boxes appropriately depending where you are exporting from

Example
Share playlist as

.txt Plain Text
.stpl Playlist File
.stsa playlist with songs

When you select EDIT in playlist

Share selected files as

.txt Plain Text
.stpl Playlist File
.stsa playlist with songs

When you select EDIT in Song mode

Share selected files as

.txt Plain Text
.stpl Playlist File
.stsa Playlist with songs

This then tells us what we are doing and to which file format it’s going to end up , it’s consistent in operation in all windows and allows us to create and export any combination of songs and create a new exported playlist without actually creating one in ST3 , this then becomes a very powerful export function or it can be as simple as you want BUT ITS CONSISTENT AND LOGICAL TO UNDERSTAND.

IMPORT files should be much the same , when you hit + in song it should give you the 3 import options
IMPORT SONGS
From iTunes music library
From local & cloud files

IMPORT FILES
From .txt Plain Text
From .stpl Playlist File
From .stsa Playlist with songs

CREATE SOONGS
Stereo song
Multitrack song
Lyrics only song

Again, all import and creation needs in one place simply labeled and easy to understand.

I have included stereo songs because if you can create the other two why not include a stereo song to maintain consistency and logic.

Anyway Peter that’s my feedback for today and great work so far I am really looking forward to the new updates the flashing metronome would have been perfect my last two gigs as the crowd was very interactive but I don’t use beta on stage as a rule especially on large gigs.
Have a great day Damir

peter

Thanks for all the feedback. Version 3.8.0 is now available on the App Store so I will lock down this thread. Let's continue in separate threads if there are any new issues discovered.

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