One Thing I wish For In ST3 MORE TRACKS PLEASE? :)

peter

Not in the near future but in version 4 most likely. How many tracks will be possible depends on the testing I will do at that time.

Remember due to the crossfading feature, 6 stereo tracks can mean up to 12 stereo tracks playing at the same time during crossfades. Each witch 4 band eq. Older devices can not handle more tracks. And I need to make the app work with all devices that meet the minimum requirements.

Damir

Bass88 Stereo tracks are seldom used by live performers , So If ST3 could have

Hi Bass88, I believe multitracking is a great tool for live bands introducing extra backing to make the band sound that little bit more professional, but I don’t agree with the comment that stereo tracks are seldomly used, in actual fact the stereo track would be the most useful and mostly used method used by majority of users just by using logical thinking, there are a lot more people out there not in professional band requiring complicated multitracking, that require simple text display or simple backing with lyrics, or just simple backing without text. Only the more professional users would use multitrack and if you require more than six stereo tracks and 4 outputs you must be a full on professional outfit in which case you might as well use an iMac with a DAW running the show , ST3 is supposed to be a simple app that plays backing tracks with lyrics on portable devices, it already does way more than is expected from it , I do understand your need and believe it’s a valid requirement, but placing extra things on ST3 will destroy its simple usability to the masses of other users that love it for its easy simplicity , I believe Peter would be wise to create a Pro ST3 version geared purely at professional users and design it in such a way it’s very simple and easy for them to use and giving multitrack a lot more power.
But that takes a lot of effort and resources even bigger companies that have huger budgets have not done it.
I would rather see six stereo tracks go to six stereo outputs , this keeps things simple and flexible each backing track can be controlled by external mixer as required.
Regards Damir

peter

@Bass88 I'm thinking maybe there would be demand for a multitrack only version of Stage Traxx that would drop stuff like EQ (which can be done in mixing console anyway) and crossfades and maximize the number of usable tracks and outputs. The question is what features are necessary for the multitrack pro users that need a high track count?

Damir

peter The question is what features are necessary for the multitrack pro users that need a high track count?

Yes this is the biggest problem, because once you go too professional you are really narrowing the number of users that would benefit from it and the price of the software would have to be such so it pays for the effort put in to it.
Example , normal 4 to 8 piece bands might have a 24 to 32 channel desks and most channels used on their desks for the live performers if you introduce ST3 pro with say stereo 8 ch audio outs thats 16 channels required that really reduces the mixers capacity to cater for all other needs, this means you need a sub mixer to take care of ST3 pro which then is mixed in to the bands normal mixer, this introduces extra cost and complicates the whole setup, this is something most bands cant afford either they dont have the knowhow or the money to outlay to gain not much more than a standard ST3 with a much more simplystic and cheaper alternative can do.
So unless you are catering for concert and quite professional bands with hudge mixers and big money involved where they will pay very good money for ST3 Pro , i think if we stick with what we have is more than good enough specially if we can have the ability that every track can be output to its own digital output so we can use the external mixer to do the heavy lifting, i think most bands and users would greatly benefit.

What is the point of having so many tracks in ST3 that it starts looking like a DAW, you might as well run a DAW instead and ask those companies to introduce synced Lyrics into the daw , that might be better for users that need lots of tracks that way you already have everything you will ever need within the DAW .
ST3 is designed to be a good simple player not a complicated multitrack editor that also displays lyrics.

Anyway thats my opinion only , just pointing out things i am familiar with but i have been known to be wrong once or twice in my 45 year old semi professional musical career 😂

Bass88

peter maybe I’m trying to use ST3 for an unintended purpose as we only have two live musicians. I’m not a sound engineer or even a pro musician but in my little brainhole the essentials for what we do would be the ability to have at least the following:

At least 12 tracks so we can have
A Guide track (often called a “Count-in track)
A click track.
10 instrument backing tracks.
(All assignable to a USB interface to be mixed and eq’d externally).
Volume control for each track
Lyrics
Midi at least capable of controlling lighting systems as well as changing patches on synths or effects rigs.

So yes if I had to give up anything it would be anything that could be accomplished by an external mixer because we need one anyway.

dmcknight

peter I like this idea! I am certainly willing to pay for an app that is more featured toward multitracks. The apps that are heavily marketed toward churches are Prime from LoopCommunity and Playback from Multitracks.com. The thing I don't like about them is they want you to use their content exclusively or pay a subscription to load your own files in. I and I'm sure others on this forum would be interested in discussing or helping with feature requests and testing.

Damir

Bass88 maybe I’m trying to use ST3 for an unintended purpose as we only have two live musicians. I’m not a sound engineer or even a pro musician but in my little brainhole the essentials for what we do would be the ability to have at least the following:
At least 12 tracks so we can have
A Guide track (often called a “Count-in track)
A click track.

10 instrument backing tracks.
(All assignable to a USB interface to be mixed and eq’d externally).

Hi Bass88, You seem to be doing things just like myself, and your requests are very legitimate, i also would like a 16 track capability and 16 outputs so i could just load each track that was a 16 track midi file which is then converted to 16 audio tracks and all loaded as a song package automatically in to ST3 in one hit, then replayed as individual tracks to an external mixer for me to then do with the tracks whatever i like. This would be perfect.
But in reality this aint gonna happen for another few years as the computer industry is just waking up to all the uses that computers can be used for.
Peter is an early explorrer in a new land and is battling with the new environment, once he clears a path then thing will move much faster.
We are fortunate to have 4 stereo outs and six stereo tracks, so for now i do all my mixing at home and just use 1 stereo track as front house, i dont even bother with click tracks anymore i just use the backing track as audio feedback and i use a visual click track in parts where there is no audio, this seems to work very nicely and is simple to control on the night the sound is always perfectly mixed and i also have looping as another feature to impress the audiance cause you can always pause go fully live cue up the next part of a song by choosing a loop and get back perfectly on with the backing, so why stress yourself with all those tracks in live performances when the audience does not feel any difference but your brain ends up doing a lot more work on the night unnecessarily.
Simply put, the gain achieved by multitracking live is not worth the effort and pain that goes in to it from an audience point of view.
Cheers Damir

NachoChez

Damir
Bass88, here are my comments on your request.
I too have a two person group that uses backing tracks (no sound engineer) and originally started with a laptop running Ableton for live performances. I could adjust anything I wanted on the fly. I started looking for an iOS solution for two reasons: 1. I wanted to be more portable (this included all hardware pieces not just the laptop), 2. I was actually spending too much time tweaking the mix/settings instead of focusing on playing.

With the change in approach, I spend more time mixing/EQ the backing tracks during creation in Logic. Then all I have to do on the gig is balance the live musicians with the backing tracks (3 pieces) vs. a dozen separate tracks, and I have also normalized the levels between songs so there is very little change needed once the initial level/EQ is set. It is very difficult to a be performer and be a sound engineer at the same time. The less sound engineering and more performing I can do on a gig, the better. This approach has made my gigs more enjoyable and less stressful. I truly believe if you do not have a sound person, the fewer tracks the better.

I also have some flexibility built in. I can use the same tracks if I have to play in a solo situation by having a separate track that would cover anything I need if my playing partner is absent. When we both are there, that track is muted and for solo work it is not muted. (the other approach I have used is bouncing a solo and duo version of the same song and putting one on each track and muting the one I don't need for the gig.

The last comment is about stereo tracks live. In my experience, they are not that useful. It may be because of the size of venue/group I work with, but no one I work with has any serious stereo effects, or mixes in stereo live, where this is required. Many groups run in mono to run the house off one side of the amp and monitors off the other side.

Bottom line for me......Keep It Simple Stupid!

Great discussion as always.
Can't say enough about Peter and ST3!

peter

Do you really need all your instrument tracks separate? Most (even larger productions) work with stereo stems that have premixed instruments groups and that's also how I work with multitracks. My usual template is this:

1: Click
2: Drums & Percussion
3: Bass
4: Guitars
5: Backing Vocals
6: Auxiliary

No keys, as I always play them myself. If I need more, I put them into the auxiliary stem.

Damir

NachoChez Nacho, you summed it up PERFECTLY and I absolutely agree with all your comments, keep it simple on the night and engage your audience as much as possible, ST3 allows you to do this better than any software out there, but it still needs polish in some areas.
More feedback is required from practical users.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!

metomet

NachoChez
Bass88
Hey there.
The application (I believe ) you need is called "Multitracker" (iOS) - Very solid piece of software! https://apps.apple.com/dk/app/multitracker/id1107736294
1: You can use all the I/O that your USB interface can provide
2: Can be controlled remotely by midi from a bluetooth controller, or your 'lyrics ' application (ST3 for example ) - they work great together (by experience )

NachoChez

metomet
I did give multi tracker a try. It did work as advertised.
It was a little more than I wanted for my setup. Was looking for the mixer functions separate from backing track management. I use ST3 and AUM on my ipad. This has been a great solution for my setup and workflow.

DaveT

Sounds like a lot to ask of an iPad that isn't exactly defined by nature to be a full blown audio device, perhaps you're best looking towards using a Mac etc? Yeah the iPad Pros are getting on par with laptops, but then you are restricting it to specific model rather than just minimum spec requirements

metomet

DaveT
hey there
"...a lot to ask" ... I have one old air 2 iPad and with Mutitracker I played songs with 12 stereo tracks without any click, pop, glitch ...whatever bad you can imagine could happen 🙂. So...I think iPad is way more capable of what we expect as performance from ... just need to find/use the right application.

peter

12 stereo tracks is the limit for Stage Traxx which runs on older devices than the Air 2. Keep in mind that during crossfades there are 2 songs playing at the same time which can double the amount of tracks.

metomet

peter

I never used crossfades, maybe that's the reason never had a problem playing 12 tracks 🙂 ... My comment was only with the intention, to help the guys here, that are looking for portable(iPad) multitrack (more than 6 chs) playback solution 🙂. By the way, after the update, that fixed the sync issue between audio tracks I find working with ST3 as a pleasure...all in one place, so comfortable 🙂. ST3 its on its way to become a standard in the world of giging - Peter, respect for your work and Good Luck in the feature!

Riff

I would love the option to have mono tracks instead of stereo. In addition to click, cue, drums, bass, and background vox, I'd love to have keys, horns, strings, percussion, sfx, etc that I can mix in the app. Otherwise I have to mix them in my DAW into a single stereo track and hope that the mix sounds good when everything is put together with the band. The thought of editing a couple hundred of my songs in order to combine stems into stereo tracks to fit the 6 track limit seems daunting.

Damir

Riff perhaps a choice do you want 6 stereo or 12 mono tracks might be a good compromise, i do believe 12 mono tracks that can be panned would be a good way to run as stereo is not great when used on PA in a venue .

Riff

Damir If I had to choose, I'd definitely choose 12 mono tracks vs 6 stereo tracks. I run my mains in mono too, so there's no advantage to stereo tracks at all for me.

peter

I can not simply enable 12 mono tracks instead of 6 stereo tracks. Because each track requires a whole channel strip. And that's the limiting factor. For the cpu it makes no difference if you play a mono or stereo track in a channel strip.

CFMD28

peter Understood, Peter. You're doing the best you can and we all appreciate it.

Riff

peter

Because each track requires a whole channel strip.

I'm confused about this. Are you saying that each track requires it's own output channel? They can't share? If my interface only has 4 channels, I can only use 4 tracks?

In the app, there's main output and 3 auxiliaries, all stereo, so that's 8 channels. Could there be 8 mono tracks?

Also, since I've watched Scott Uhl's videos, I've been trying to figure out how I will use the app. I'm super impressed with both the app and your helpfulness here in the forum.

CFMD28

Bass88 I am facing the same dilemma. Six tracks is used consumed fairly quickly. I am going to need to combine some tracks like cues and click. Not ideal but what else can you do. Although, we the ability to see highlighted lyrics and share the master chart via the network, the cues and even the click become less critical. If the band all has iPads follow the same chart lyric by lyric, everyone is literally on the same page (pun fully intended 🙂