Looping Feedback,
Peter i know you are working hard at the new loop creation system, but in the meantime ive been trying to make a go of the existing system and am finding to what enoys me the most about it when creating a loop.
I can not hear the loop point repeat nicely and i can not adjust the loop points accurately while listening and seeing the wavefile , nothing appears to be in sync what i hear and what i see is not correct then whatever i adjust does not seem to sit in place and a correct loop is impossible to make the other issue to consider is we should be able to select another loop and that loop shouls play next so we can play around the loops to see how they work together in different combinations , this has to be priority, its almost like we need the editor to behave like the loop player but it should just play between the loops as thats what we are creating in this mode we should not have to manually move the playhead it should just jump between loops as they are selected, this is important to test them, in the normal playback mode the whole song gets auto played or selections of llops but in edit mode we only need to hear the loop sections not the rest of the song, this gives us final confirmation that the loops will work perfectly.
At the moment if you select another loop nothing happens the song just keeps playing , well thats not what we are hear for we want to quickly edit our loops and hear them work correctly then exit to player.
I know you are bashing things out but if there is anything you can pick up from this then its worth it to comment.
Cheers Damir
Open Beta Version 3.6.0
New beta build 8388
This is another build concentrating on the performance side and not on editing. Thankfully there have been no crashes reported for the last version. So from the performance side, I think we are nearly there.
Biggest change in this version is the tap handling in the waveform view. It will now behave like this:
- Frist tap will select a region to play next
- Second and third tap will toggle the loop setting on the region
- Fourth tap will deselect the region
Exception: When you tap on the currently playing region and it has looping turned on, the first tap will turn off the loop so that you only need one tap to exit the current looping region.
Next week I will concentrate on overhauling the audio region editing based on all your feedback. This is quite a big task and I don't know if I can stick to my plan of weekly beta releases but I will try.
Added
- Playhead indicator (vertical line) in waveform view to better see the current position
Changed
- Tap behavior in waveform view (see above)
- Selected audio region will blink to be better visible
- Increased maximum number of audio regions to 12
- Selected audio region will be highlighted when playback is not running
- Editing audio region name will preselect existing name
- Selecting an audio region in editor will seek to the beginning of that region
Fixed
- Starting a manual crossfade shortly before a track ends sometimes stops playback when new track is displayed
- Audio region settings are reset when opening or closing the big player view
- Selecting audio region with pedal while stopped does not seek to the beginning of that region
- Selected audio region sometimes not played next
- +/- buttons in audio region editor not rendered correctly on some devices
I’ve had a 10 minute play and quick feedback,
I love the new logic it feels you have freedom to create on the run but I will give more critical feedback later,
The flashing next loop 
Highlighted playhead
Loop editor is much better but still needs polish,
I will give more accurate feedback soon.
Great work Pete we are getting there.
peter hi I only have big sur on macbook pro can you help
- Edited
Hi Pete, I really love the new logic of getting around a song it gives us a lot more freedom to be creative but I found a little glitch and it could be a leftover from when you were experimenting , if you are playing a loop and quick double tap on another region the song jumps to that point on waveform where you double tapped on, it took me a while to realise this unwanted action, I know we talked about double tapping to immediately jump to beginning of next loop and that might be useful but jumping to a place where you tap on is not good as you can end up anywhere plus it is dangerous as you might want to select new region and place a loop on it which means two taps but you end up shifting playhead as well, this is definitely not desired.
I love the fact In stop mode I can select any loop and start from there it’s great freedom, the white playhead line is visible even on iPhone in portrait mode I can bounce around even in that mode with finger touch.
One small request, when you choose next loops and you decide to tap again to put it in permanent loop then if you decide you no longer want that loop so you choose another loop can you make it so the permanent loop selection is also cancelled, because you want to leave this selection uncontaminated the permanent loop was only put there because you were planing to use this loop now that you have changed your mind it also needs to be cleared if you happen to use this loop again you can always reactivate it.
I also have an idea with the foot pedal control which I already mentioned but I just thought it might be useful for both looping foot controls switches,
When selecting loops you don’t have an extra foot hit to clear loops you instead have a long press clears loop selections, this should apply to all permanent loop selections foot switch, if you have pre programmed permanent loops they can be all temporarily cleared by a long foot press but if you long press again they can be put back, this then gives you easier and more powerful control over your performance.
Let’s say it’s a dead crowd and normally you have a permanent loop setup on your solo but you can see this crowd sucks and you don’t want to bore them with it all you need to do is long press your permanent loop foot switch and you are done the song plays as is that’s one example but there are many more scenarios that might require this simple operation.
I really appreciate you making the playlist button a two hit option between songs in playlists and playlists themselves this is so much more convenient thanks.
As you are aware there is one more issue that exists which greatly limits looping playback and that is after you pass the last looping point you can not use the loops again, I don’t know how it can be easily fixed but I had a thought the MIX feature seems to work really well now that we can mix out and cut in to next song, perhaps something similar, I just had a thought, what if a double tap on a next selected loop region initiates an instant play of that loop, meaning you can select a loop you want to go to then double tap on it at a time you want to x to it, this would allow us to leave a non looped area of a song and if it can leave this area on a next beat point meaning it will be in time when joining a loop point.
Just a thought as this is the only bigger problem I can see in loop playback.
Ok bye for now and great work so far 
It.
Hi Peter, after playing with the loops new logic which i think is much more user friendly i think there is one change i would make, that is when you are on a loop and you have permanent loop selected, if you choose a new loop selection this takes priority as thats what you want next, you should not have to disable the permanent loop manually this should be done automatically, because if you want to permanently stay on that loop you dont do anything, if you want to move as normal just tap the section it cancles the loop and moves on or if you choose another loop elswhere just select another out of sequence loop this should immediately assume you are done with the permanent loop and move on to this new loop and auto clear the just played permanent loop selection, this then does not leave a contaminated loop area you just left. This means a next loop selection takes priority over now selected loop and its permanent loop selection.
The looping idea is sooo good now all we need badly is a method of easily creating accurate loops that work, the playback logic is almost bullet proof and functional on both the foot pedals and the interfaces, well done.
More Looping suggestions
Editing loop selection is much better where you just select a loop and hit play and it plays from begining of loop, this works well, but its only a start to a better experiance, touching another loop should playout the now playing loop and jump to the newly selected loop, this then allows you to test the transition between loops which is crucial for testing all loops against each other in case there is a bad loop point that could cause an on stage embarrasment.
On iphone 11 max pro in landscape you can not do anything when in loop edit mode, there is no play button visible, this makes this window absolutely useless.
My suggestion for the loop editor is the whole screen should be used and not a pop up window , this gives users maximum screen space on small devices.
The interface should be devided in to four sections, a narrow menu line on top to exit to settings a + to create a new loop, an undo redo function and an exit to main player button, below this line should be a narrow waveform that basically is the same as the normal waveform player this displays the whole song and all loops are shown there , this is where you can test all your loops to how they work togetger in any order, there you can select a loop and this song position is zoomed in the section below which is the largest window which allows you to see only the one loop point but very accurately to be able to change the zoom point so a very precise loop point can be achieved.This third section is the main loop editor , all the windows are always present for quick operation, the fourth section is just below the main editor this is where you have your green play button that looks like the main players green play button but it is much smaller and it is in bottom left corner, next to it is a permanent loop button which is where you turn on/off for every loop, next to this is a naming of loop area , this is where you change the name of the loops , next to that which is actually the bottom right corner is the colour selection button, when selected it pops up a colour selection window to choose a colour for the loops ,
The interface looks very similar to the ST3 main player window but has different function, it is designed for easy loop creation, the play button is roughly in the same spot, the loop waveform window is basically where the normal waveform window is and the precise loop editing function is where the song playlist / Lyrics screen is, the loop editors menu is where the clock timer song name area is in main player, this maintains a similar work flow area but is rearranged to suit the loop function, the loop function editing deserves a full screen operation to make it very easy to create loops even on the smallest devices.
Basically it is similar layout to TWISTED WAVE software but designed for loops, if you notice ST3 is already layed out like that as well its just setup as a player, just stick to the same layout and give us the looping editing features in a same layout.
You might be already on to this but i thought id throw in some more ideas.
I could almost get on stage with the last beta update if i had accurate loops.
Great to see where its heading i think its going to be fantastic when its completed.
- Edited
Ability to create 12 loops seems to work ok but i dont see a great advantage for 12 loop points when they cant be easily manipulated or recognized as they are too small sections even on an Ipad, But perhaps on the IMac it probably would work and if its a longer song it might be usefull, it doasnt bother me at all as i can only use what i need so its fine but just pointing it out. Love it.
Loop editor
What needs improvement is when entering loop editor the loops should be coloured as the choices you have made for them so you can see the colour choices without having to enter every loop to see its colour, this would be very usefull when adding new loops or rearranging loops ,
as i said before when in play mode a loop should play through so if you have selected another loop it does not immidiately jump to it , it plays to the end of now playing loop than jumps to new selection allowing you to test the transition.
Foot pedal operation.
I have just noticed a long press on the foot pedal actualy auto sequences through all the loops , now this seems a good idea but is not practical as it moves too fast through the loops and if you have a larger number of loops you really cant use this sucessfully on stage specially cause you cant see the names of loops as the regions are too small so you dont really know when to let go of the pedal. If the speed was decreased it might work but then you might as well hit the button yourself a number of times to get there, as it might be safer than going fast in auto than having to do it again because you missed the loop you wanted.
Perhaps a better way would be if you had foot control to go back and forth just like selecting songs, i know it means another switch but it might be worth the conveniance if relying heavily on loops.
I still think a more worth while command is better to have like long press cancels any selection, as you can easily step through a few loops so why have an automated search that doasnt work well as a second method when you most likely be in a situation where you just want to exit any new selections quickly and at the moment if you have 12 loops and you have chosen wrong loop you have no quick exit strategy, to me i might use 7 to 8 loops at the most, i can get to them acurately by a few foot presses and if i do stuff it up i can long press and no one is the wiser the show goes on, but if i have stuffed it and than have to scroll to end of all loops then perhaps gone one step too many presto i am in an embarrasing position repeating the intro , id much rather long press and cancle the loop jump to keep the song runing smoothly.
IDEA!
Perhaps slow down the auto scroll with long press and introduce a quick double tap to exit selection.
The only way to see is to try.
Reporting a looping feature bug, when you create loops and their colour then you exit to player the new changes dont immediately update the song untill you exit and return to the song.
- Edited
Damir if you are playing a loop and quick double tap on another region the song jumps to that point on waveform where you double tapped on,
There is no double tap action on the waveform. I think you accidently slided your finger during the second tap which is a pan gesture and that seeks to the current position. You can disable this seek during playback in the settings.
Damir One small request, when you choose next loops and you decide to tap again to put it in permanent loop then if you decide you no longer want that loop so you choose another loop can you make it so the permanent loop selection is also cancelled
Makes sense. I will add this in the next update.
Damir When selecting loops you don’t have an extra foot hit to clear loops you instead have a long press clears loop selections,
There is no long press with pedals. Airturn pedals just signal an action to the app. Not a pedal pressed and pedal released event.
Damir what if a double tap on a next selected loop region initiates an instant play of that loop
I can't use double taps in the waveform view as they would slow down single taps. Each single tap event would be delayed by half a second to wait for a potential second tap. That does not work at all!
Damir Ability to create 12 loops seems to work ok but i dont see a great advantage for 12 loop points
This was a direct user request. There are users out there that need so many and you don't need to use all of them. So no harm done.
Damir I have just noticed a long press on the foot pedal actualy auto sequences through all the loops
That's because you setup your Airturn device to send regular key press events while keeping the pedal down. You can change that in the Airturn setup of your pedals. Like I wrote, there is no pedal down and pedal up event with Airturn so no way to do a long press.
Damir Reporting a looping feature bug, when you create loops and their colour then you exit to player the new changes dont immediately update the song untill you exit and return to the song.
I do see these changes immediately.
Hi Peter have just been testing the revised tap handling in the wave form view. What I’ve found is that if a song has a long duration (I happened to choose a medley 6 mins long) and a loop is short (I looped the first 2 intro bars) the view of the loop in the wave form view is so tiny that it is very difficult to make the tap commands work. I’m testing on my iPad.
Thats strange because on my ipad when i return to the player nothing is updated unless i hit play then it seems to update or i exit this song and return to it, but the innitial view is not showing my editors loop changes immediately i will try it on my iphone and imac to see if its the same.
Hi Peter and Dicky, what do you think of this basic idea, this means you would easily be able to trim your intro start and end but the button size is allways half the waveform, the playhead within the few bar intro would move nicely to see where you are within the loop so you can visually plan an exit, as you add on more loops the waveform area gets divideded accordingly always maximizing the size of the loop buttons , this would make loop selection very nice no matter what size the loop, it could be 1 bar or 32 bars the button size is dependant on how many loops you are using.I believe this logic would also help people on small devices, not just the ones that use more loops.
I know its late to change but i do believe the coneipt has merit.
Damir peter Damir Reporting a looping feature bug, when you create loops and their colour then you exit to player the new changes dont immediately update the song untill you exit and return to the song.
I do see these changes immediately.
Thats strange because on my ipad when i return to the player nothing is updated unless i hit play then it seems to update or i exit this song and return to it, but the innitial view is not showing my editors loop changes immediately i will try it on my iphone and imac to see if its the same.
I have just narrowed down the bug, i believe it is only related when using permanent loops as a test.
Create a number of loops
Exit to player check it out it is probably ok now go back to loops and select each one and select permanent loops on all of them now exit to player, the loops dont show untill you play the song or exit and reenter the song, now the interesting thing is if you now go back to all loops and turn off all permanent loops, then get back to player the actual change is immediately reflected, so it apperars its only when you create permanent loops is when it doasnt update immediately.
I hope this is what you find Pete.
DickyDutch What I’ve found is that if a song has a long duration (I happened to choose a medley 6 mins long) and a loop is short (I looped the first 2 intro bars) the view of the loop in the wave form view is so tiny that it is very difficult to make the tap commands work.
Yes I know, but the waveform view has a fixed resolution where each bar represents the same time. I can not stretch parts of that display just to show short loops. I have no idea how to prevent something like this. You can still use pedals to manipulate the loop though.
Damir I don't like this proposal very much because each box has the same length even though one might be just 2 measures long and the other maybe 16 or longer. That would lead to the playhead constantly changing movement speed. And it will also not work if you have parts of the song which have no audio region defined like for example at the end of the song.
Damir I have just narrowed down the bug, i believe it is only related when using permanent loops as a test.
That's right because when a song is loaded into the player, it will create a copy of the initial loop settings and from then on only manipulate this copy. That way you don't loose your initial settings while modifying the performance to your taste.
I could reset it to the initial settings when exiting the edit dialog though if you would prefer that.
Edit audio regions problem, if you create an Ending loop that finishes at end of song, this loop finishes and jumps to begining of song, this is not good you want it to loop just like all other loops, as you are editing this final loop, the playing logic has to work in the favour of loop creation.
Damir I think your idea is perfect but unfortunately it seems that according to Peter this concept is not feasible. Such a shame…. There certainly needs to be a way of clearly visualising the loops under all circumstances and in such away the tap handling function works easily.
DickyDutch How about pinch zoom on the waveform? Seems like the natural way to do it.
peter I have just narrowed down the bug, i believe it is only related when using permanent loops as a test.
That's right because when a song is loaded into the player, it will create a copy of the initial loop settings and from then on only manipulate this copy. That way you don't loose your initial settings while modifying the performance to your taste.
I could reset it to the initial settings when exiting the edit dialog though if you would prefer that.
I don’t understand the response but my theory is if I have edited something I expect to see that edit immediately when returning to play it .
DickyDutch I think your idea is perfect but unfortunately it seems that according to Peter this concept is not feasible. Such a shame…. There certainly needs to be a way of clearly visualising the loops under all circumstances and in such away the tap handling function works easily.
I might sketch up an interface that is designed purely for loop creation at the moment the loop editor is not dealing with it well the layout is very poor and it’s accuracy is suffering, and it’s because it’s still operating like a player not a loop creator.
The player itself I can use as it is because I use longer loops and I only need 6 so that works but as soon as you have short two bar loops or you use all the 12 loops the interface is struggling.
I personally don’t care about the waveform once I have loops because the loops are what interest me and they are perfect so I can trust them , the waveform is somewhat useful before we had looping because it showed you that a tacit or solo are coming because you could see a gap or higher peaks in it as a rough guide, but it gave you nothing else apart from seeing when you were approaching the end, this is totally unnecessary when you have nice big buttons that represent your loop area as long as you can see the buttons and read what the section represents, if you don’t have those major things in place you haven’t gained much by introducing looping, this is crucial, you need to be able to create perfect loops easily then you need them in your face from 2 meters away otherwise you have failed.
I will show my idea what I think I would be happy with as far as editing, I am not totally happy with player look but I can definitely use it as is on stage because the way I will use loops.
But the Editor I will give 4 out of 10 so far it started on a 2 but I think Peter will get it to 10 if he perseveres.
He’s done a great job so far.