Mute/unmute tracks via timecoded lyrics markup

tommybluenote

I spend a lot of time preprocessing stems externally before importing to Stage Traxx.
As a guitar player and vocalist, I want to play rhythm during certain parts of a song, and lead during other parts of the song. I want to mute the pre-recorded rhythm guitar track during most of the song, except during the lead sections. In some cases, I want to keep parts of the prerecorded lead track, typically containing fills, but mute the main lead part, which I want to play live. To achieve this, I bring all of the stems into an audacity project, do these manipulations on them, export them, and then import them into StageTraxx.

It would be very nice if I could avoid this process and simply mute and unmute tracks at certain timecodes via lyric markup. For example, Muting track 1 and unmuting track 2 at 1 minute, 15 seconds:
[mixer@01:15.00: mute@1, unmute@2]

This idea could be extended to support other mixer functions such as panning, and volume changes.

Of course, exposing mixer functions via midi would provide the same capability, without introducing any new markup.

This idea was inspired by another request: https://support.stagetraxx.com/d/4555-muteunmute-tracks-in-regions

Damir

tommybluenote It would be very nice if I could avoid this process and simply mute and unmute tracks at certain timecodes via lyric markup. For example, Muting track 1 and unmuting track 2 at 1 minute, 15 seconds:
[mixer@01:15.00: mute@1, unmute@2]

This idea could be extended to support other mixer functions such as panning, and volume changes.

Of course, exposing mixer functions via midi would provide the same capability, without introducing any new markup.

Your need is exactly what I need but looking at it from a different perspective.
You are suggesting a way to program an automated control of muting your rhythm and solo guitar within ST4 , but what I was suggesting a while back is to have easy manual control of this capability , reason I want manual control is I can choose at any moment in any song to take over rhythm or a solo, this involves no programming which then locks you in to do this no matter what, you might as well then just create your files the way they need to be in the first place , don’t forget ST4 is a player only.
By having easy finger or foot control of MUTES and SOLO buttons it makes it very easy to create very flexible and inspiring changes to the backing tracks , so I am against ideas that make you program things in and stifle your creativity but I am all for ideas that allow you freedom of choice precisely at the time you need to create a fast way to get exactly what you need.
Example if all your tracks are always the same in all songs , it should be simple to create a command on one foot switch to simply swap the mutes between , a single tap swaps between the rhythm and solo mutes so it’s either one or the other playing , and a long press on same switch combines them to both play .
So now you are playing rhythm and rhythm guitar track is muted solo guitar is active you hit a foot switch that simply swaps the two now you have your rhythm backing and you can play your solo.
This gives you freedom and no time wasting having to program anything which then locks you in and restricts your freedom .
A DAW is there to create a fixed method of performing, ST4 should enable us the freedom to create on stage and on the run.

KEckhoff

tommybluenote very relevant case indeed. Fully supported

tommybluenote

tommybluenote I have learned that StageTraxx doesn't allow you to send midi from within StageTraxx to StageTraxx, providing some more justification for this markup proposal.

tommybluenote

Damir That's a very interesting use-case. I can imagine that one possible way of approaching this would be to combine this feature request with some implementation of midi macros (e.g. https://support.stagetraxx.com/d/4522-midi-macros) and then binding that midi macro to a an assignable control.

Damir

tommybluenote That's a very interesting use-case. I can imagine that one possible way of approaching this would be to combine this feature request with some implementation of midi macros (e.g. https://support.stagetraxx.com/d/4522-midi-macros) and then binding that midi macro to a an assignable control.

The problem with MUTES and SOLO in ST4, its designed to act more like a normal mixer , but ST4 is not a normal mixer it does not have live microphones , feedback issues , etc, so the MUTES and SOLO should be designed to operate in a way so on stage performers benefit from them.
The logic needs to change a bit to suit the operational need.
To create what you need for example , we have 6 mute masters.
Mute 1 button has a mute on your rhythm guitar, Mute 2 has a mute on your Solo guitar , foot pedals have the ability to send multiple commands at the same time , so if you program a single tap sends a mute command to mute 1 to release a mute and at the same time it sends a mute 2 command for mute 2 to engage , this now will give you your rhythm guitar and mute the solo then on the next long press of the pedal you program the reverse commands so you can easily get what you need.
The only obstacle is ST4 needs to have the assignable actions available and also have assignable buttons to create this actions on screen.
This then gives us easy control of any scenarios we choose to have , for me it means I could easily program drums and bass only combination where I want to totally strip back the backing to bare bones and build up the layers as needed on the run as the mood suits the moment.
Theres no point to have these things programmed in ST4, as the audience and the mood is always changing.
Same with SOLO if I decide to kill everything but drums I should be able to just hit a button and you get a drum beat only , to then layer tracks by adding extra solo buttons to increase the mood slowly then releasing all SOLOS to get the full backing back.
This then makes sense to have solo in ST4 , it’s totally useless to have a solo capability in single stereo playback having mute is all that’s needed.
In multitrack having solo is ok if you only need one instrument like drums then exiting solo but that’s limiting , if we had additive solo it would be much more useful.
Yes in prep work you can make use of solo, but we are talking about being on stage .
I think I will stay in stereo till these sort of things are available so it gives me more reason to change, as I am a solo performer, at the moment multitrack system is geared up more for band users and not really focused of using the function for on the run manipulation to create the mood on stage.

tommybluenote

Damir I hear what you're saying, but there is a clear benefit for these pre-programmed mutes/unmutes, as it eliminates the need to pre-manipulate the stems prior to importing into StageTraxx. Both use-cases are valid, and would be achievable if the mixer functions were exposed (via midi commands).

tommybluenote

KEckhoff Can you explain how this is fully supported or point me at a relevant link?

KEckhoff

tommybluenote Sorry I was a bit short above. My support was towards your first comment in this tread. Fully support to enable mutes with timestamp commands in the lyrics. Easy to implement for testing/experiment during rehearsal and easy to undo again without going back to the DAW. I see others is advocating for control by midi pedals, but for my band timestamp control would be best. Lets see if we can get sufficient votes for both features 😊

Damir

tommybluenote I hear what you're saying, but there is a clear benefit for these pre-programmed mutes/unmutes, as it eliminates the need to pre-manipulate the stems prior to importing into StageTraxx. Both use-cases are valid, and would be achievable if the mixer functions were exposed (via midi commands).

I don’t disagree with having the ability to pre programmed commands but it depends of what commands , some people want to pre program things to a point they might as well not be doing anything on stage just hit a button and let the sequence do its thing.
That’s fine for a huge concert scenario where absolute control is used to create a fantastic show, but ST4 is mainly used by people performing at smaller gigs as a backing tool to slightly boost their performance, if used too much it takes away from the band or a solo performer to a point the person in the audience is thinking AH ITS ALL PROGRAMMED! and ignore the act.
There has to be a balance where the tool used is helping the performer in a way it makes the performer look good not the other way around.
The idea of mutes/solo in ST4 should be utilized in a way we can use this function on the run to create an illusion that we are in full control of the performance , that’s the trick and that’s why LOOPERS that perform well can keep their audience glued to them for the first 30 minutes after that they loose them because you can only do so much with that system of performing,
ST4 audio segmenting has allowed us to do similar thing as loopers do except we can do full on songs people recognise with different twists, as long as it’s not overdone.
We can create our own versions of full songs and manipulate them along the way, that’s what ST4 should be about.
Having mutes/solo presented to us on the interface in a way we can easily use them to make us look good on stage should be priority no 1, that’s my view and I’m firmly sticking to it having a lot of on stage experience.

MusicMan81

Hey @peter

Have you given any thoughts on this idea? I think it can be very useful.
Specially for those who want to implement this on a more deep level.

Just for example.
I use 3 tracks (Click, Cue, Count) and it would be amazing to be able to use the timecode to mute the Cue track.
I have my Morningstar midi set to use the same button for “loop and mute the cue track”, that way when we loop any part, we don’t hear the cue calling the next part every time we repeat the part we are looping.

So far so good, but!

If we use “X” song at the beginning of the show, and is our intro song, and we want to address the audience or say some words, since we don’t know how long it would be, what I do I cut short as much as I can the intro, let’s say 1 or 2 bars, and I add the loop function automatically form the song settings, this way the looped part is short and I have more control to take it out… but this brings me a problem, the loop is automatic ON and the cue track by default is Not Muted, so if I take out the loop so we can begin the song, it takes the loop off but mutes the cue track….

In a normal situation, having the same button for both functions is great, but when we automate a loop in any region to program a fixed loop, the functions invert…

Hope I explained myself.

Damir

MusicMan81 If we use “X” song at the beginning of the show, and is our intro song, and we want to address the audience or say some words, since we don’t know how long it would be, what I do I cut short as much as I can the intro, let’s say 1 or 2 bars, and I add the loop function automatically form the song settings, this way the looped part is short and I have more control to take it out… but this brings me a problem, the loop is automatic ON and the cue track by default is Not Muted, so if I take out the loop so we can begin the song, it takes the loop off but mutes the cue track….

I do a similar thing with some intros , some I permanently loop and disengage when ready other songs I trigger a loop instantly when needed.
I don’t have a click track so I don’t have your problem but I thought about it and possibly came up with a solution.
If your foot pedal can send multiple midi commands you could trigger the loop on off at the same time send another command to trigger the BUS mute command that mutes your click bus.
This will achieve what you need , a mute of click if in loop mode not to hear false instructions.
I am assuming two things , you are running multitrack and you have a foot pedal capable of sending multiple commands on one switch.

MusicMan81

Damir Read again, you didn’t understand.

I do that already.

Pedal button press…. “ON” loop. Mute “ON” Cue track
Pedal button press…. “OFF” loop. Unmute “OFF” Cue track

So as you can see, the stances of both functions are the same always, so far so good.

IF! I autoloop from the audio regions editor, so every time the intro of that song starts with the looping function ON. Then The triggers are like this.

“ON” loop…. “OFF” Mute cue…. Because I haven’t press the foot pedal and the mute cue part haven’t received the command yet…. So they are inverted, and no matter what from that moment on, the functions remain inverted.

So I want to be able to auto mute, with the timecode so I can be more present in the show and don’t need to be looking at the St4 always to pedal dance…

Damir

I see what you mean now , this might need some deeper thinking , it’s an unusual operation but perhaps someone else has come up with a workable solution.
So you are wanting to be able to program the click track to mute and unmute at particular time by placing these commands in the Text editor? Is that it?
Or are you asking for a logic change , where if loop is on the click is off , if click is on loop is off and this logic is always the case , you can’t have them both on at the same time . If so, this is very niche , Peter is the man that knows if this is achievable.
I hope I understood it this time if not good luck with it.

MusicMan81

Damir read carefully man, all the answers to your questions are addressed.

MusicMan81

@peter

I found a solution to this Peter, the problem now is, every time the loop activated repeats, the midi message activates on every repeat, so is changing on/off/on/off with each repeat, is there a command to select a midi event specific in latch mode? Or just play once ignoring the repeats during loops?

@tommybluenote I found a workaround, but is using the Morningstar MC6 pro midi pedal. If you have it, let me know and I’ll explain the steps.

tommybluenote

MusicMan81 Thanks, but I don't use the Morningstar. I do have a midi foot pedal that will allow me to send multiple commands with a single button press, however.

peter

All remote midi commands are just triggers. So each time a message is received, it will trigger that command and that will toggle the repeat. Latched commands are not possible. Maybe in a future feature update.

MusicMan81

tommybluenote ok, maybe you can achieve the same.

You just need to add the midi functions you want on the midi pedal, in a bank you don’t use, then set the pedal to trigger that action when it receives a specific midi command and relay the midi to the output….

So for me, if I send a midi command from the ST4. CC6 on X timestamp, in the Morningstar, when he receives the CC6, triggers the CC7 to the output, and the CC7 is to mute the Cue track.

This way you can automate any midi trigger for any midi function in ST4.

tommybluenote

MusicMan81
Thanks for the info. I have done the same with Loopy Pro. Where ST4 sends a message to Loopy Pro, which triggers an action which sends midi command to ST4. This works, but it all feels very Rube Goldberg to me.

KEckhoff

tommybluenote Wouldn't it be much easier if mute/unmute could be done directly in the lyrics as you proposed initially in this tread? I just posted some additional arguments for this option in this tread https://support.stagetraxx.com/d/3725-save-button-in-mixer-view