MIDI Trigger to select song not working

MarkGuitar

I am still currently using Ableton to play back our tracks but have a midi track in Ableton setup to load (trigger) songs in ST to display lyrics etc.
I am using MIDI over RTP (Network) and in ST3 it works perfectly and selects the song just fine. But in ST4 it is not doing anything when Ableton sends the MIDI command (Program Change) to ST.
I am sending out over MIDI Channel 8.

MarkGuitar

UPDATE

It would seem that the format of the midi command is slightly different in ST4 vs 3. The midi command as it came across from ST3 in the initial backup/restore does not work in ST4. But if I redo the midi learn for the song, it appears in a different format and then works. The difference is the decimal number after the PC value, which I believe is the bank number.
Here are some screenshots to demonstrate

Midi command as it appears in ST3. This works fine in ST3

Midi command as it appears in ST4 after the restore from ST3 backup. This does not work in ST4

Midi command in ST4 after redoing the learn. This now works. Note the different format.

OK so I COULD redo the learn command on every song I have setup with midi triggers, but there are almost 200 of them and I really don’t want to have to do this. Also, the fact that having the bank number in the command seems to break it makes me wonder if the bank select is not actually working?

Any thoughts @peter
Thank you

peter

MarkGuitar So the original PC command from ST3 expected a bank select LSB message before PC message.

Potentially we might have 2 bugs: either the learn action does not recognize bank selects correctly or the incoming message is not handled correctly. But then I would expect the PC to load that song in any case Independent of any bank select.

Are you sure you send the bank select from your midi gear?

AnthonyB

Doesn't that point to a bug in ST3? Or at least, some very relaxed parsing of the command in ST3?

A Program Change message shouldn't have, or need, a 'value' (i.e. the .0 before the @)? I would expect the Bank MSB to be a separate command before the PC? I.e. a CC0.x followed by the PCxy

The fact that (to use the examples above) PC37.0@8 works at all is surprising to me, and my interpretation is that ST4 is actually behaving correctly in 'learning' and expecting PC37@8

Maybe my assumptions are incorrect so will wait for @peter to validate.

MarkGuitar

Yes the “.n” syntax is unusual but definitely described in the MIDI section of the ST3 manual.

********** From ST3 Docs **********
Most MIDI gear only uses the LSB part to address banks as that already allows to address up to 16384 patches. The MSB part is always 0. Stage Traxx has a shortcut to address these banks. You only need to add the LSB part to the program change number after a dot.

Example: Suppose you want to select patch 101 in bank addressed by MSB 0 and LSB 4 on channel 1. You only need to send 1 MIDI command:

PC101.4@1

So I assumed the same concept would be carried forward to ST4. Agreed it is somewhat proprietary I think, but very neat.

AnthonyB

Huh. Well there you go!

MarkGuitar

Hi @peter

Yes the DAW (Ableton) is definitely sending the LSB, see screenshot.

In Ableton, the Bank is MSB, the Sub is LSB and PGM is the PC Value. NOTE, Ableton doesn't use Base 0 MIDI but uses BASE 1. So the 0 LSB is achieved by setting it to 1 in Ableton. Likewise, the PC value of 37 is achieved by sending 38. Why they do that I don't know.....

Anyway, I send that same command to ST3 and it results in the learn process placing "PC37.0@8" into the song select command. And when I run the song in Ableton, the song selects perfectly (In ST3)

When I did the backup Restore to ST4. it placed the same command into Midi Trigger field (PC37.0@8). Which does not work in ST4 (song is not selected).
However, If I 're-learn' in the song, ST4 appears to ignore the LSB command (Sub in Ableton) and places just the PC command (PC37@8)into the MIDI Trigger field. That then works and selects the song as expected.

So my initial problem is that I have about 200 songs with Midi Trigger values transferred over from ST3 that do not work. I can re-learn them all but that will be a pain.

But my 'longer term' concern is about what ST4 is doing with bank commands for the MIDI trigger function in general.

I tried manually typing back in the .0 after doing a re-learn and ST4 stopped selecting the song. So it seems the '.n' syntax on a PC message is not working in ST4.

Thanks of looking at it.

Eanna

MarkGuitar
Hope you don't mind me jumping on here to pick your brain; Also using Ableton for tracks but can't figure out how to get ST to display scrolling lyrics for Ableton songs. I send song midi triggers to ST over rtpMIDI, it calls up the correct song but doesn't play it - so the lyrics don't scroll - any advice?!

Only reason I'm still using Ableton is I need to mix one audio channel (vocal harmony) live via midi expression pedal. Can the mixer faders in V4 be controlled via midi? If so I'm done with Ableton!

peter

OK, so this looks like a bug in recognising the bank select message. I will take a look at it.

AnthonyB

Eanna Best to start a fresh thread that clearly identifies your question than piggyback this vaguely related one. There will be a number of Ableton users in the community that will happily respond!

peter

Fixed in build 1977.