ST3 Stereo/Mono output options ?

Damir

Hi Peter, I have just purchased QC18T mixer and am in process of deciding which way to use it for maximum ease of use on stage.
I am confused by ST3s Audio Device Setup choices.
They don’t make sense to me.
If I switch on Combine usb & headphone Outputs, the audio level of headphone jack drop drastically and I don’t really know what have I just achieved by switching this on , I assume I will now also get a usb output in stereo only with no multitrack capability on USB , OK but why the level drop ? It makes no sense,
Also why would you not have this on as default , we don’t need to know or have a choice in this , if we need usb we simply plug in usb connection and use it, if we need headphone jack out we simply plug in headphones and use it, if we need both then just use both at the same time, so what is the reason for this option which also changes our audio level?
I understand we might need to switch between usb stereo and multitrack modes but why have the combine switch?
Surely the software can automatically know if the output is stereo or multitrack modes, if you add a track in any of the multitracks it means it’s a multitrack output song and automatically creates that output scenario, if the track has no multitracks used it means it’s a stereo track .
I just don’t get the combine mode logic and why it’s there and why it lowers the main output level so much by using it.

The other confusion is Stereo Song Output.
What is the purpose of that?
The options you get there a weird, Disable , why?
Speaker, yeah! So what? Yes I want speaker OK, what other options?
Left, why do I just want left only? I can just plug in left only on device and not plug in right if I don’t need it, same applies to Right.
What I actually need here is a simple stereo / mono choice so I can feed two amplifiers with exactly the same audio mix or a full stereo mix without involving an external mixer. This is a lot more useful .
So to sum it up we only should have one option we either run stereo or mono all other options disappear and are automated all outputs are available just pick one all levels are correct and don’t change usb mode of operation is dependant on which audio tracks you use and none of this is needed to be setup by us it simply just works.
I have not looked at the multitrack side of things only the stereo options that don’t make sense to me.

peter

I am aware of the volume drop but I haven't found out why it happens for some devices but not for all devices.

The combine headphone option is only useful for users that have no multichannel usb interface and need more than 2 outputs. For you with the CQ18 it makes absolutely no sense.

Stereo Song output is the output used for your stereo songs. You can disable it because you can disable any audio output and I will no make an exception for stereo songs.

You might want a Left (or Right) only output when you want to sum your stereo files to mono when running a mono PA or maybe when you want to send a click on the other side.

It is not possible to send the same signal to multiple outputs. This will also not be possible in version 4. You can only send multiple signals to the same output.

Damir

peter Thanks Peter for the explanations.
I think overall this area is very confusing and unnecessary, there must be a simpler way to do all these unusual requirements.
Hopefully ST4 will be a much more user friendly setup.
The way I see it is, just like Allan heath mixer logic it gives you a one simple way to do things on the mixer , once you learn this it becomes very fast simple and easy.
Don’t give us so many options just give us the ones the majority needs .
My simple way of thinking is ,
A stereo file is always used by Chanel 1 /2 , this resides on the first fader of the multitrack setup and it has to be loaded with a file otherwise the multitrack system is not available to load, once this is loaded the second track that uses ch 3/4 is available to load and the song becomes a multitrack song , this is the normal setup , if you empty all tracks and leave track 1 loaded the song becomes a stereo song , you can’t load other tracks unless you have track 1 loaded first, this way you have a system that is automated , if no audio is loaded then it becomes a Lyrics only track automatically and all functions change to suit that mode , similar if you only load track 1 now it is a stereo song and all functions change to suit the stereo mode of playback , once you load track 2 it becomes a multitrack song again all functions change to suit multitrack mode , after track 2 is loaded that suits external devices that use ch 1/2 3/4 than all other tracks can be loaded randomly that have their own channels dedicated to them from 5/6 to 15/16.
These channels are not changeable in ST4 they are default channels that can be changed in the DAW to suit the layout of the project.
At the moment it’s very confusing the way it is presented , we have choices but most of us don’t have a clue as to what they do or how they do it and to top it off we get a signal level difference , this is all unnecessary.
I would like a simpler method of input output setup ,
8 stereo tracks that can be converted to 16 mono tracks , a way for one stereo track to combine the stereo to two mono outputs that are identical then the ability to completely seperate to two mono outs as well where you need total seperation.
So simply put.
A stereo track with one fader on ch 1/2
A stereo track that can be monoed/combined but is still treated as a stereo track with one fader on ch 1/2 simply giving you two easily controled signals to feed a stereo amp but both signals are the same.
A stereo track that gets converted to 2 seperate mono outs with seperate faders for each output on ch 1/2. This gives you full control of all 16 mono tracks if needed or any combination of tracks needed, all 16 tracks get paired 1/2, 3/4, to 15/16.
The 8 stereo tracks can all be individually setup in these three ways to suit the users needs.
This way you can create all needed scenarios without confusion.
You can have any combination of tracks needed .

peter

Version 4 will be very easy. You add tracks to a song. For each track you select an output bus. This is song specific. Each output bus can be sent to an output. The same output can also be shared by multiple busses.

There will be a full mixer available with your tracks on the left (tracks can be sorted freely and also named and colored), followed by the song volume slider that acts like a DCA group for all tracks within the song. Next is the playlist / queue volume slider. Finally on the right you will have all busses visible that are used in that song. Bus settings are global. So you can easily change outputs from the mixer, change output volume and also mute busses.

This corresponds to a typical mixing console layout.

Damir

peter WOW! that sounds brilliant, keep up the good work 👍

AnthonyB

peter Hi Peter, a quick question on this topic for ST4 based on a challenge I have with ST3.

Currently in ST3, if I have a multitrack song, and I adjust the volume of a track (e.g. my stereo backing tracks), then when I update that audio file with a newer version, the volume adjustment resets.

In one respect, I completely understand why this makes sense. It's a new audio file, start over on any volume settings.

On the otherhand, I've found it a frustration, as it means I have to be SO careful when updating my backing tracks, to make sure I know if there is a volume adjustment, and then reapply it to the updated file.

Now, I absolutely agree that the better solution here is to remaster my backing track and increase/decrease the volume in my mastered backing track and keep all the track volumes in ST3 flat. 100%. But sometimes I need to have a temporary adjustment preserved until I make time to go back and remix/remaster a backing track.

I would understand if the current ST3 behaviour is maintained, but I'd love the ability to retain audio track volume settings when updating the audio file.

peter

Just overwrite the file in the Stage Traxx folder with the new version. Then the volume will not change. When you update by replacing the file with a new file in the multitrack configuration, it is replacing the whole track.

In version 4 you would have to remove a track and add a new track if you would do it that way.

So in both versions, the best way to update a track is to replace the audio file in the ST3 folder. That's why you have direct access to that folder.

AnthonyB

peter Hmmm. OK.

I'm a bit OCD with version control so every audio track I produce includes a date in the filename so that if I miss something and need to roll back, then I have a 'previously known good' (or at least, previously known) version of the file.

Yes, I could export from my DAW and keep the versions there and then rename before I import into ST3, but again, having the date in the audio filename means I can easily see at a glance in ST3 how old the audio file is. I'm often making updates to many songs at a time and I'm found myself interupted in my workflow a few times and almost missed updating a file in ST3 on occassion. The date in the filename is even enough for me to realise "oh crap, I know I prodcued an update to this backing track in my DAW last week, but I have the 3 month old file still loaded in ST3".

I guess that leads me to another question/request - in ST4 are you planning on having any logging of these types of files operations (I was also thinking about backups and restores, config edits, etc.) so that you can check what changes have (or have not) been made, and when?
Even if there was something similar to the small note under the current Restore option that tells you what file was last used for restore and when, I always felt that sort of information would be really helpful under the Backup button, and somewhere in the audio tracks section for each audio file import.

peter

Most stuff is logged but only in technical logs that I can use to debug issues. And these log files are only kept for 3 days. There will be no additional logging in version 4.